Apparently an oops that has been publicized.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by gslefeb

During the throw in - if the ball was in the air and the officials blew the whistle, this would go to POI - which in this case would be the AP correct, resetting the clock to 3secs?

If the officials waited until possession in bounds, then the POI is team A's ball out of bounds closest spot, with some time needing to come off the clock for the catch. Therefore, Team A ball - reset clock to 2.7 secs (3 secs minus the .3 for the catch).

Without regard to the clock, accidental whistles are always POI.

Consider this, though. What if A1 was still holding the ball for the throw in when the accidental whistle blew? No team control, so would you go AP? Of course not, because it's during a throw in. The same concept still applies if the throw has been released but not touched; POI is the throw in.

[gslefeb]

mbyron thanks: 4-36-2b

So would the throw in be at the end line or closest spot to where the ball was? 3secs back on the clock?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by gslefeb

mbyron thanks: 4-36-2b

So would the throw in be at the end line or closest spot to where the ball was? 3secs back on the clock?

The key here is to define ball location.

Go back to the end line and put all the time back on.

[Amesman]

Got a hold of the reporter who wrote the article in question and it cleared up a lot. I'll post his e-mails below.

But overall, it sounds like our striped brethren nailed it (though I told the reporter I'd get full confirmation here -- sounds like he's sharp and willing to learn) and an inattentive clock operator needs a talkin'-to.

From the reporter:

"TI inbounded the ball under the basket and the kid threw the ball toward mid-court. Two or three players on each side jumped for the ball and I believe several kids touched it. The Hanrahan kid looked like he might have outjumped everybody for ball, but the horn sounded I believe before he had possession. LaLonde [his coach] thought otherwise.

"But the only way to be sure is if there was a replay, which of course there wasn’t. I was not aware of the rule that a clock malfunction was the same as an inadvertent whistle, but I bowed to the officials who both are among the best in our area. On the surface, it didn’t seem fair for Thousand Islands not to get the ball back. But If it’s a rule, it’s a rule. The fact that TI allowed the South Jeff kid to make a lay-up at the end was probably overlooked.

"If you have any input I’d appreciate a note back.

"And, yes, it was difficult to describe all that happened in those final frantic seconds. And as you said, it was a difficult game to officiate because both teams were going to the basket hard. But the officiating had nothing to do with the outcome.

"Here’s what I was told about the horn.

"There was a timeout with three seconds left. The clock operator set the automatic timer for the timeout, but then forgot to turn it off before the timeout was over. Thus, the timeout horn went off when the ball was in the air. The TI fans booed the officials for that call. They should have gone after their own clock man.

"It’s just a good thing this didn’t happen at South Jefferson."

[Adam]

The question is, where was the ball when the whistle blew rather than when the horn sounded.

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The question is, where was the ball when the whistle blew rather than when the horn sounded.

If he threw it toward "midcourt," let's assume it was between the top of the key and the division line, or just at "midcourt," which would make sense with the ensuing throw-in description from the article.

[PIAA REF]

They kicked it, bottom line. It is POI. Team Control does not matter. THe POI is the throw-in. They should have NOT went with the arrow.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by PIAA REF

They kicked it, bottom line. It is POI. Team Control does not matter. THe POI is the throw-in. They should have NOT went with the arrow.

Not if the ball was touched (ending the throw-in) but not controlled before the stoppage.

Lesson: Always wait for two horns on time outs.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by PIAA REF

They kicked it, bottom line. It is POI. Team Control does not matter. THe POI is the throw-in. They should have NOT went with the arrow.

Looks like the throwin was over, based on the fact it had been touched, but not controlled, by various players before the horn.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The question is, where was the ball when the whistle blew rather than when the horn sounded.

Originally Posted by Amesman

If he threw it toward "midcourt," let's assume it was between the top of the key and the division line, or just at "midcourt," which would make sense with the ensuing throw-in description from the article.

Okay, I need to rephrase "the question." I don't really care "where" it physically was. The question is whether it was controlled by a player before the whistle blew. Even if the horn sounded before control, if control was gained prior to the whistle, you have team control for POI purposes.

[sseltser]

Thanks for all the replies.

I'm from the area, but moved, and my father was telling me what he knew (although it was predominately from the article).

It is (more) clear that there probably was no clock malfunction.

It is also likely that the throw-in had ended prior to the ball becoming dead.

It also seems that team control was never established.

Sounds like they probably got it right.

Although, answers to those three would be pretty important. And it might be tough to know if there was a clock malfunction (as an official) with a 50/50 ball in the air and several kids jumping for it. It might also be tough to know whether someone had control (i.e. a tough judgment call) in such a case.

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Okay, I need to rephrase "the question." I don't really care "where" it physically was. The question is whether it was controlled by a player before the whistle blew. Even if the horn sounded before control, if control was gained prior to the whistle, you have team control for POI purposes.

Uh, right. Sorry about that, but I'm with you all the way on this one regardless. Apparently the officials ruled no control -- coach begged to differ, but he doesn't get a whistle and the stripes, so the vets did in fact get it right ... other than not waiting for the second horn, that is.

Can't believe all that happened before the second horn, even if it was a full TO.

So here's one extender to this whole thing: Since the whistle is obviously the play-stopper, when do you advise ignoring the horn and yelling / motioning to the players to try to "play on" in a given situation? Or do we just have to be resigned that if something is amiss with the horn's timing, the clock operator is going to drag all of us down with him/her?

[Adam]

I'd say this close to the end of the game, the horn is hard to ignore because everyone is waiting for it. In the middle of the third quarter, I'm more likely to tell them to play on. In this situation, the ref may well have blown his whistle as soon as he heard the horn.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'd say this close to the end of the game, the horn is hard to ignore because everyone is waiting for it. In the middle of the third quarter, I'm more likely to tell them to play on. In this situation, the ref may well have blown his whistle as soon as he heard the horn.

This. If I am the official with the clock, I'm whistling as soon as the horn goes in this situation.

[sseltser]

Just as an update:

Watertown Daily Times | Do over: Spartans, Vikings at odds

I like how the league uses the "best-two-out-of-three" method for solving disputes.

What I don't know is what the actual story (or sequence of events) that the officials provided. IMO, this is the only scenario that matters, and if the protest is upheld, the game should resume following proper rules application for this scenario.

Of course, my real opinion is that the game is over. Condolences to the losers.