Changing Call Outcomes

[commcoach]

Hi everyone. I was recently just turned onto this forum from another site. I should maybe provide a little background; I've played various forms of organized basketball for over 15 years. By various forms I mean jr high and high school teams as well now in a competitive men's league team. On top of that I have been coaching a community basketball team (register and play, no tryouts) ranging in age from 12 to 19 years for the last 8 years.

I posted this scenario in the previous forum I mentioned, and thought it would be beneficial for me as both a player and a coach.

We all know that once a ref makes a call, it sticks. But what if the call resulted in a misapplication to the consequences?

Player on my team gets the ball at about mid-post where he is then double teamed. The ref watching the backcourt blows the whistle as the offensive player shoots the ball as the ball goes in the hoop.
The call: Foul on #XX. Basket's no good. 2 shots.
This was the defensive team's first team foul of the quarter, so there could not have been a bonus. I approach the ref asking for an explanation of the call, but he immediately shut the door on me.

It didn't occur to me until after the game, but I'm thinking I maybe should have called a timeout in order to buy some time to get this sorted out by the refs. We are a poor free throw shooting team, so I would've much preferred the basket+1 rather than just the 2 foul shots. If I called the timeout, what could the change have been?
A) Foul counts. Basket counts + 1 free throw?
B) Foul counts. Basket doesn't count. Offensive team's ball on the baseline?

Is there anything I could be missing? At this point, it's still a correctable error and I'm asking for is an explanation as to how we can be rewarded 2 free-throws for getting fouled in the act of shooting AND not have that basket count? As an official, how would you prefer this situation be handled? I know there are varying rules for different regions, so let's just say we're following FIBA rules.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by commcoach

Hi everyone. I was recently just turned onto this forum from another site. I should maybe provide a little background; I've played various forms of organized basketball for over 15 years. By various forms I mean jr high and high school teams as well now in a competitive men's league team. On top of that I have been coaching a community basketball team (register and play, no tryouts) ranging in age from 12 to 19 years for the last 8 years.

I posted this scenario in the previous forum I mentioned, and thought it would be beneficial for me as both a player and a coach.

We all know that once a ref makes a call, it sticks. But what if the call resulted in a misapplication to the consequences?

Player on my team gets the ball at about mid-post where he is then double teamed. The ref watching the backcourt blows the whistle as the offensive player shoots the ball as the ball goes in the hoop.
The call: Foul on #XX. Basket's no good. 2 shots.
This was the defensive team's first team foul of the quarter, so there could not have been a bonus. I approach the ref asking for an explanation of the call, but he immediately shut the door on me.

It didn't occur to me until after the game, but I'm thinking I maybe should have called a timeout in order to buy some time to get this sorted out by the refs. We are a poor free throw shooting team, so I would've much preferred the basket+1 rather than just the 2 foul shots. If I called the timeout, what could the change have been?
A) Foul counts. Basket counts + 1 free throw?
B) Foul counts. Basket doesn't count. Offensive team's ball on the baseline?

Is there anything I could be missing? At this point, it's still a correctable error and I'm asking for is an explanation as to how we can be rewarded 2 free-throws for getting fouled in the act of shooting AND not have that basket count? As an official, how would you prefer this situation be handled? I know there are varying rules for different regions, so let's just say we're following FIBA rules.

First of all, please clarify your situation for us. Please clarify the situation by using Team A and A1-A5 for your players on the court and Team B and B1-B5 as the opposing team's players. This will help clarify if the shooter was the player fouled or another player was the player fouled. Secondly, timing is extremely important, was the foul called on the shooter, but was it BEFORE the player began his shooting motion, during or after his shooting has had commenced/ended? Was a player off of the ball fouled? These descriptions likely will not lead to the official being correct, but may help explain what he was thinking.

Not sure where this league is actually being played, but I am not aware of any league in Central Ohio that plays by FIBA rules -- nearly all play a modified version of NFHS/OHSAA rules since those are the rules most of us officials know the best.....not that it is likely to make a difference in your situation...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by commcoach

Is there anything I could be missing?

I don't know FIBA rules, but I have seen a foul on the initial attempt, the player (because of the foul) abort that attempt, and then start another one immediately -- and the ball goes through. That second attempt "never happened."

And, if you already tried to talk to the official, taking a TO to talk some more just might lead to FTs for the other team.

[Ref_in_Alberta]

Originally Posted by commcoach

Hi everyone. I was recently just turned onto this forum from another site. I should maybe provide a little background; I've played various forms of organized basketball for over 15 years. By various forms I mean jr high and high school teams as well now in a competitive men's league team. On top of that I have been coaching a community basketball team (register and play, no tryouts) ranging in age from 12 to 19 years for the last 8 years.

I posted this scenario in the previous forum I mentioned, and thought it would be beneficial for me as both a player and a coach.

We all know that once a ref makes a call, it sticks. But what if the call resulted in a misapplication to the consequences?

Player on my team gets the ball at about mid-post where he is then double teamed. The ref watching the backcourt blows the whistle as the offensive player shoots the ball as the ball goes in the hoop.
The call: Foul on #XX. Basket's no good. 2 shots.
This was the defensive team's first team foul of the quarter, so there could not have been a bonus. I approach the ref asking for an explanation of the call, but he immediately shut the door on me.

It didn't occur to me until after the game, but I'm thinking I maybe should have called a timeout in order to buy some time to get this sorted out by the refs. We are a poor free throw shooting team, so I would've much preferred the basket+1 rather than just the 2 foul shots. If I called the timeout, what could the change have been?
A) Foul counts. Basket counts + 1 free throw?
B) Foul counts. Basket doesn't count. Offensive team's ball on the baseline?

Is there anything I could be missing? At this point, it's still a correctable error and I'm asking for is an explanation as to how we can be rewarded 2 free-throws for getting fouled in the act of shooting AND not have that basket count? As an official, how would you prefer this situation be handled? I know there are varying rules for different regions, so let's just say we're following FIBA rules.

Sounds to me that the official on your game mis-applied a rule. IF your player was in fact in the act of shooting and was fouled and the try scored, the basket should of counted and your player should of been awarded 1 FT.

The only way I could see the senario where the basket wouldn't of counted is the official judged that the foul occurred on a shot attempt (hence the 2 FT) and the player ended their continuous motion and "reloaded" for a second try (hence cancelling the made basket).

Hard to tell though from your description of the play, it's a HTBT situation.

[doubleringer]

Sounds to me like the officials weren't sure if the ball went in or not. In this case, they may go to the table officials to ask if the ball went in. If they don't get infomation that the ball did indeed go in, you'll shoot the 2. If they do find that the ball went in the hoop, you'll count the basekt and shoot 1.

As far as the official not communicating with you, a lot depends on the official's experience and how you ask. When I was newer, I was not nearly as approachable because I was unsure about what I was doing and didn't want to be questioned. Sounds to me like a weekend league where you might have newer officials, officials not interested in getting better, or the worst, non-officials with no training. In any of those 3 cases, you have to relax and make the best of the situation, as frustrating as I'm sure it is.

[commcoach]

A4 gets the ball at about mid-post where he is then double teamed by B4 and B3. The ref watching the backcourt blows the whistle as the offensive player shoots the ball as the ball goes in the hoop.
The call: Foul on B3. Basket's no good. 2 shots.
This was the defensive team's first team foul of the quarter, so there could not have been a bonus. I approach the ref asking for an explanation of the call, but he immediately shut the door on me.

It didn't occur to me until after the game, but I'm thinking I maybe should have called a timeout in order to buy some time to get this sorted out by the refs. We are a poor free throw shooting team, so I would've much preferred the basket+1 rather than just the 2 foul shots. If I called the timeout, what could the change have been?
A) Foul counts. Basket counts + 1 free throw?
B) Foul counts. Basket doesn't count. Offensive team's ball on the baseline?

Originally Posted by doubleringer

Sounds to me like the officials weren't sure if the ball went in or not. In this case, they may go to the table officials to ask if the ball went in. If they don't get infomation that the ball did indeed go in, you'll shoot the 2. If they do find that the ball went in the hoop, you'll count the basekt and shoot 1.

As far as the official not communicating with you, a lot depends on the official's experience and how you ask. When I was newer, I was not nearly as approachable because I was unsure about what I was doing and didn't want to be questioned. Sounds to me like a weekend league where you might have newer officials, officials not interested in getting better, or the worst, non-officials with no training. In any of those 3 cases, you have to relax and make the best of the situation, as frustrating as I'm sure it is.

To clarify a few questions posted by others, this is a weekend league in Alberta (surprised to see ref in alberta). In my opinion, A4 was already in the air when the foul was called, obviously without any kind of video or proof you'll have to take my word, so feel free to take it for what it's worth.

To answer how I approached the ref, I felt I was just confused about the call because it didn't seem to make any sense so I was looking for clarification in hopes that if he explains the call, it might not make sense to him either.

[Adam]

My first thought was to assume the officials got it right, so I started thinking about which scenario could lead to the result.

Bob's works, and I thought of a similar one. A1 (the shooter) was fouled in the act of shooting, but traveled after the foul, thus making the ball dead and ending the try.

Now, if either of these situations happened, I would expect to be giving a quick explanation to both coaches due to the unusual nature of the call.

As for not providing you the explanation, doubleringer provides some good examples of why that may have happened. There are at least two more that I can think of, and they are related.

1. You've been complaining about multiple calls before this point, and the official was simply tired of explaining things to you.

2. Your league has a bunch of coaches and players who complain constantly, and the official is tired of it. This may not be a reflection of you, but of the league itself.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by commcoach

To clarify a few questions posted by others, this is a weekend league in Alberta (surprised to see ref in alberta). In my opinion, A4 was already in the air when the foul was called, obviously without any kind of video or proof you'll have to take my word, so feel free to take it for what it's worth.

Coach, it doesn't matter whether he was in the air when the foul was called, for two reasons.

First of all, being in "the air" has little bearing on whether the try was in progress or not. Many shot attempts begin on the floor. Also, it's possible for a player to jump in the air and then decide to shoot.

Second, "when the foul was called" is usually well after it was committed. It's possible the events happened in the following order:

1. Your player began his shooting motion.
2. He was fouled.
3. He traveled.
4. He jumped and/or started another shooting motion which was successful.
5. The whistle blew for the foul on the original shooting motion.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by commcoach

A4 gets the ball at about mid-post where he is then double teamed by B4 and B3. The ref watching the backcourt blows the whistle as the offensive player shoots the ball as the ball goes in the hoop.
The call: Foul on B3. Basket's no good. 2 shots.
This was the defensive team's first team foul of the quarter, so there could not have been a bonus. I approach the ref asking for an explanation of the call, but he immediately shut the door on me.

It didn't occur to me until after the game, but I'm thinking I maybe should have called a timeout in order to buy some time to get this sorted out by the refs. We are a poor free throw shooting team, so I would've much preferred the basket+1 rather than just the 2 foul shots. If I called the timeout, what could the change have been?
A) Foul counts. Basket counts + 1 free throw?
B) Foul counts. Basket doesn't count. Offensive team's ball on the baseline?




To clarify a few questions posted by others, this is a weekend league in Alberta (surprised to see ref in alberta). In my opinion, A4 was already in the air when the foul was called, obviously without any kind of video or proof you'll have to take my word, so feel free to take it for what it's worth.

To answer how I approached the ref, I felt I was just confused about the call because it didn't seem to make any sense so I was looking for clarification in hopes that if he explains the call, it might not make sense to him either.

Thanks for the clarifications. The net is that the only times you are going to shoot two shots in this situation is if
a). the player was in his shooting motion (as has been accurately pointed out by others, being in the air is not required)
b). the try was not successful (and the goal was not awarded for goal tending, etc.)

The primary reasons why the shot was not considered to be successful would have included:
a). there was a violation before the release (travel, etc.).
b). the shooting motion had not commenced.

In the case of a), the result would have been two free throws assuming the shooting motion had commenced.

In the case of b), the result would have been a throw-in as you pointed out.

[doubleringer]

[QUOTE=CMHCoachNRef;652768]Thanks for the clarifications. The net is that the only times you are going to shoot two shots in this situation is if
a). the player was in his shooting motion (as has been accurately pointed out by others, being in the air is not required)
b). the try was not successful (and the goal was not awarded for goal tending, etc.)

QUOTE]


Actually if they rule it an intentional foul, you would shoot 2 free throws if the basket was good as well, but I'm just confusing the issue.

[Ref_in_Alberta]

[QUOTE=doubleringer;652774]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Thanks for the clarifications. The net is that the only times you are going to shoot two shots in this situation is if
a). the player was in his shooting motion (as has been accurately pointed out by others, being in the air is not required)
b). the try was not successful (and the goal was not awarded for goal tending, etc.)

QUOTE]


Actually if they rule it an intentional foul, you would shoot 2 free throws if the basket was good as well, but I'm just confusing the issue.

Doubleringer,

You really are confusing there issue...

Firstly -FIBA does not have an intentional foul. FIBA lingo is an Unsportsmanlike Foul.

Secondly - FIBA rules a made basket & an Unsportsmanlike Foul is penalized with 1 FT and posession of the ball at the division line.

[doubleringer]

I know. I'm a teacher. I spend the majority of my life confusing people.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

I know. I'm a teacher. I spend the majority of my life confusing people.

To be fair, though, they were confused before they got to you.