bad information

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Precisely, that said do you ever ask table where are we on TOs? And if table relays info to you, just as assistant wanders over to catch tail end of conversation, poses question to you, how many left? Do you play Marcel Marceau and point to table or relay info?

I really don't want to know unless one team is dead. IMO, that's what an assistant is for.

What does Bob do?

I would refer the AC to the scorekeeper.

[representing]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I agree with everything you said, except for this sentence. You should start always telling a coach when he/she is out of time outs. While it's a duty of the scorer, the scorer is to inform them through an official. So once a scorer confirms to you a team has exhausted its alloted TOs, you have a duty to inform them.

Thanks JD. I knew I was going to get some comments from that sentence, if anything, but I've learned to be honest with you guys. Honestly will bring more constructive criticisms!

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Dbyb

JV-G game. At 3 minutes in the 4th quarter R goes to table and asks for time outs left to each team. Scorer says Home has 0 time outs left and Visitors have 1. R conveys this information to each coach. At 1 minute left, Visitor coach calls a time out. R grants the time out, reports it and has the timer start the clock. Scorer then tells the R that Visitors, in fact, had no timeouts left and that earlier she had made a mistake and should have said Home had 1time out and Visitors had 0. (The 16 year old scorer just reversed the time outs and there was no visitor book to cross check). R now assesses a tech to the Visitors. Visitor coach is understandably upset having taken a time out that she was informed she had and then assessed a tech for not having it. The tech was assessed, both shots made, and she lost by 1 point.

Once the time out had been granted, was there any other option than the one we took?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No.

But, you could have avoided the situation by not telling the coach she had one left. Only inform them when they have zero left.

OK. So, for the sake of argument (that's why we have discussions, right?), as an official/scorer, they FAILED to notify this coach he had zero timeouts left. While not being part of their prescribed duties, it is EXPECTED that the scorer is keeping track of TOs taken throughout the game, otherwise, they would not know when a team has taken five.

I know what Nevada and some others are going to do here, but, in this case, we are going with the scorer's information that was communicated TO THE COACHES. I am going to grant the time out, NOT assess a technical foul and inform the scorer to more closely keep track of timeout counts in the future.

I can only assume that the coach was NOT properly notified when he/she had taken their last time out. Based on information provided FROM the OFFICIAL SCORER, the coach used that information and was PENALIZED significantly.

What is the penalty levied against the scorer/official for FAILING to properly notify a coach that he/she has taken his/her final allowable time out? Do they get a pencil inserted somewhere? Penalizing this team in this instance is NOT consistent with our jobs of keeping the game fair.

jmo.....Yes, I am thinking as a coach, but I would NOT want to win a game this way, either. In this case, one coach's pain is another's gift. Therefore, my view is actually "coach neutral" in this case.

[Adam]

Let's assume no information came from the table, then the coach requests a TO and you find out it's excessive. Are you going to ignore the T?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

OK. So, for the sake of argument (that's why we have discussions, right?), as an official/scorer, they FAILED to notify this coach he had zero timeouts left. While not being part of their prescribed duties, it is EXPECTED that the scorer is keeping track of TOs taken throughout the game, otherwise, they would not know when a team has taken five.

I know what Nevada and some others are going to do here, but, in this case, we are going with the scorer's information that was communicated TO THE COACHES. I am going to grant the time out, NOT assess a technical foul and inform the scorer to more closely keep track of timeout counts in the future.

This error is no different than a scoring error that may change the outcome of a game, or an official's error in putting the ball in play with 6 players on the court. There is a penalty.

Is it fair to the opposing team that the coach gets to use an excessive timeout at, possibly, a very critical point in the game? Perhaps it prevents a turnover that would have given the opposing team a chance to win? Does your point of view change if it is the home team that is given bad information by their own scorer?

I hope you'll re-think your position here. While unfortunate, the excessive timeout needs to be penalized.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Precisely, that said do you ever ask table where are we on TOs? And if table relays info to you just as assistant wanders over to catch tail end of conversation, poses question to you how many left? Do you play Marcel Marceau and point to table or relay info?

I really don't want to know unless one team is dead. IMO, that's what an assistant is for.

What does Bob do?

1) I ask only if I can't remember. I try to know how many of each type so when they've used all their 30s (for example) I can just grant a full without asking "how long" and getting the "I only have fulls, you dumbass" look back.

2) Coaches usually say something like "two left, right?" If the information agrees, I acknowledge it.

[doubleringer]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

When I coached, I had three rubber bands on the left wrist (full TOs) and two on the right wrist (30s, or 20s back in the day) and took one off each time I used one up.

[/I]

This is good stuff. Reminds me of a chain crew I had this season for football. Home team was playing poorly and I hear the crew say, "better get them out". They all put a sucker in their mouth. I ask what that's about and they inform me that 2 of them have kids playing and they do that at times to keep from coaching from the sidelines when they are not allowed to. I liked it alot, they were great guys, did a great job, and I reccommended them for the state championships.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

1) I know what Nevada and some others are going to do here, but, in this case, we are going with the scorer's information that was communicated TO THE COACHES. I am going to grant the time out, NOT assess a technical foul and inform the scorer to more closely keep track of timeout counts in the future.

2) What is the penalty levied against the scorer/official for FAILING to properly notify a coach that he/she has taken his/her final allowable time out?

3)Yes, I am thinking as a coach,

1) And from an officials' standpoint, if you do so:
a) You just knowingly screwed the other team
b) You may have cost yourself your career by doing so
If you pull that one at the state playoff level with it's attendant spotlight and publicity, you may never work at that level again. And if a complaint comes in against your actions, pray tell just what you are going to say to respond to that complaint.
It's never a good idea to ignore a plainly written rule just because you don't agree with it. And it's never a good idea to advocate that other officials should do so either. Two wrongs don't make a right.

2) It could possibly cost them their job. But that's got nothing to do with us either. That's the responsibility of whoever is assigning the table crew. It's their job to deal with it, not ours.

3) Yes, I am thinking as an official...

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's under scorer's duties, 2-11-6, (paraphrasing)
notify a team and its coach, through an official, when that team has been granted its last timeout.

Below is a link to the "Instructions to & Duties of the Scorer for Basketball Games"

http://www.nfhs.org/Workarea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2867

Under "Notify the Nearer Official" it states:
1. The bonus penalty is in effect for the 7th, 8th & 9th team foul in each half. The bonus display indicates a second free throw is awarded for all common fouls (other than player-control) if the first free throw is successful. The proper bonus panel, such as (H for home & V for visitor) shall be displayed after the penalty for the sixth team foul has been administered. Another method is to activate a light or device nearest the basket of the team which is to receive the bonus.
2. The 10th team foul occurs each half. Thereafter, the bonus (2nd free throw) is awarded for a common foul (except player control) whether or not the first is successful.
3. Any player is charged with his or her 5th foul (personal or technical), the 2nd technical foul is charged to any team member, bench personnel, directly to the head coach, or the 3rd technical foul is charged to the head coach.
4. Either team has been granted its allotted charged time-outs or an excess time-out.
5. The ball is dead or in control of offending players team if:
a. Player has not reported.
b. Player’s number changed.
c. Player is illegally in game.
6. The ball is dead, if there is a score dispute or doubt about an official’s decision.
7. Any player enters while wearing an illegal number.
8. The ball is dead and the clock is stopped or running, if the coach requests that a correctable error as in 2-10, or a timing, scoring or AP mistake be prevented or rectified.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Hartsy

What happens when you guys tell a coach they have no more TO's, and later they find out they did? Not as bad as using too many, but it's still an issue. That's why I say nothing. Though now I vaguely recall that we are supposed to inform them when they have used their allotment. Please inform.

What usually happens is that they disagree and we'll figure it out right then.

And yes, we are supposed to inform them at "0".

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1)
It's never a good idea to ignore a plainly written rule just because you don't agree with it. And it's never a good idea to advocate that other officials should do so either. Two wrongs don't make a right.

While i generally agree with your point, I think you'll agree that "never" is a little too broad....unless you normally call and advocate the calling of a multiple foul.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) And from an officials' standpoint, if you do so:
a) You just knowingly screwed the other team
b) You may have cost yourself your career by doing so
If you pull that one at the state playoff level with it's attendant spotlight and publicity, you may never work at that level again. And if a complaint comes in against your actions, pray tell just what you are going to say to respond to that complaint.
It's never a good idea to ignore a plainly written rule just because you don't agree with it. And it's never a good idea to advocate that other officials should do so either. Two wrongs don't make a right.

2) It could possibly cost them their job. But that's got nothing to do with us either. That's the responsibility of whoever is assigning the table crew. It's their job to deal with it, not ours.

3) Yes, I am thinking as an official...

JR,
I passed this question along to one of our local rules interpretors. His view, interestingly, was basically the same as mine. Since the information came from the Official Book, that informatoin is, well, official. Therefore, he would not allow such a change to take place in the book, thus granting the timeout without penalty.

I have posed the exact question to numerous officials since this posting hit this past week. NOT ONE official that I have presented this situation to would call this technical foul. One official who has worked a State Final indicated that he would have, when informed of the error by the timer, not grant the timeout (since the coach would not have requested it had he not been informed that he did, indeed, have one). He would have immediately put the ball back in play and not allow any subs.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

JR,
I passed this question along to one of our local rules interpretors. His view, interestingly, was basically the same as mine. Since the information came from the Official Book, that informatoin is, well, official. Therefore, he would not allow such a change to take place in the book, thus granting the timeout without penalty.

I have posed the exact question to numerous officials since this posting hit this past week. NOT ONE official that I have presented this situation to would call this technical foul. One official who has worked a State Final indicated that he would have, when informed of the error by the timer, not grant the timeout (since the coach would not have requested it had he not been informed that he did, indeed, have one). He would have immediately put the ball back in play and not allow any subs.

That's because you didn't ask me. Of course, you didn't have to as you already know what I would do.
Oh, and I've worked several State Finals, if that means anything to you.
Coaches should be able to count to five. It is their responsibility to know how many time-outs they have used and have remaining.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's because you didn't ask me. Of course, you didn't have to as you already know what I would do.
Oh, and I've worked several State Finals, if that means anything to you.
Coaches should be able to count to five. It is their responsibility to know how many time-outs they have used and have remaining.

An interesting question then: how many coaches actually keep track of their own time-outs via either their clipboard or another peice of paper?

Why always trust the scorebooks when not always do the scorebooks keep track?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by chseagle

An interesting question then: how many coaches actually keep track of their own time-outs via either their clipboard or another peice of paper?

Why always trust the scorebooks when not always do the scorebooks keep track?

That's what assistant coaches are for.