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[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

JR,
I passed this question along to one of our local rules interpretors. His view, interestingly, was basically the same as mine. Since the information came from the Official Book, that informatoin is, well, official. Therefore, he would not allow such a change to take place in the book, thus granting the timeout without penalty.

I have posed the exact question to numerous officials since this posting hit this past week. NOT ONE official that I have presented this situation to would call this technical foul. One official who has worked a State Final indicated that he would have, when informed of the error by the timer, not grant the timeout (since the coach would not have requested it had he not been informed that he did, indeed, have one). He would have immediately put the ball back in play and not allow any subs.

Interesting. You have a local rules interpreter that advocates ignoring a very plainly written rule. And you haven't found any officials at all in your area that would also also follow a plainly written rule--for whatever reasons. And you've got a state final official that also wouldn't follow a plainly written rule. A state final official that would grant a TO, find out that it's an excess TO, and then cancel the TO so that he didn't have to call a "T". I'd love to see your state final official make that call at the end of a state championship game. Fwiw and if it'll make you feel better, Chris Webber would probably agree with that state official in a heartbeat though . Methinks that your area has a heckuva lot of work to do in the education of their officials. Note that's jmo.

In my experience, I don't know one good official that wouldn't make that call. They might not like the rule personally and they also personally might not want to follow the rule, but they would do it. the caveat obviously is that I and they are not in your area(I think).

And information from the scorebook is..well... official? Cool. Gee, I take it that under that philosophy we can't go back and correct any scorer's errors made under rule 2-10 or fix any scorer's mistakes under rule 2-11-11 either. Heckuva idea ...and a heckuva rules interpreter you got there, Coach. Btw, mentioning rule 2-11-11, I guess your rules interpreter never read the l'il sentence in there that says "A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score. Nope, once it's entered in the scorebook, it's ..well...official.

And right there, folks, you'll find the biggest difference between how a coach thinks and how an official thinks. A coach thinks that a rule should only be valid and enforced if it's fair to his team in his opinion. An official knows that the rules were written trying to be fair to BOTH teams, and that if we won't follow a plainly written rule it not only gives an unfair advantage to one team but it unfairly penalizes the other team at the same time. You only worry about YOUR team, coach. But we have to worry about BOTH teams. And if we don't call that deserved "T" in the play being discussed, we just screwed the other team.

Sorry, coach, we completely disagree philosophically on this one and we always will.

[mbyron]

Ultimate responsibility for knowing how many time outs have been called lies with the coach. That's why the T for calling an excess TO goes to the coach, not the scorer or the team or (ha) the official.

The scorer and officials do their best to assist with that count. But just as we help with but don't bear responsibility for ensuring the proper number of players on the court, we help with but don't bear responsibility for teams taking the correct number of TO's.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Ultimate responsibility for knowing how many time outs have been called lies with the coach. That's why the T for calling an excess TO goes to the coach, not the scorer or the team or (ha) the official.

The scorer and officials do their best to assist with that count. But just as we help with but don't bear responsibility for ensuring the proper number of players on the court, we help with but don't bear responsibility for teams taking the correct number of TO's.

I dont say anything to coaches about how many TOs they have left for the exact reason of potential misinformation from the table. And when I have a partner who comes back from the table and says "white has 1 '30' and 1 full left" I politely let them know I don't care.

It is not my responsibility as an official to track TOs. That lies with the coaches and the official book. My job is to grant the TO if it is requested by the HC or a player on the court. I routinely see benches with 4 or 5 asst coaches these days. The HC should have one of them be in charge of tracking TOs. Thats what we did when I coached.

Honestly, I did not know the rule that the scorer is to communicate the last TO through an official. I will start doing this but it is still the responsibility of the scorer to let the officials know. I will not seek out this information.

Bottom line is that coaches are responsible for their TOs. They should have an asst keep track and double check with the book. As an official Im going to grant a TO if called. And if its excessive then Im going to administer the proper penalty. IMO its hard enough to call a good game without worrying about things that are other people's responsibilities.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

An interesting question then: how many coaches actually keep track of their own time-outs via either their clipboard or another peice of paper?

Why always trust the scorebooks when not always do the scorebooks keep track?

Really? I have yet to encounter even a middle school scorebook person who doesn't keep track of timeouts. This is basic.

Even so, Nevada's right. That's what AC's are for. If a coach doesn't have an AC, use the kid on the end of the bench.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Dbyb

JV-G game. At 3 minutes in the 4th quarter R goes to table and asks for time outs left to each team. Scorer says Home has 0 time outs left and Visitors have 1. R conveys this information to each coach. At 1 minute left, Visitor coach calls a time out. R grants the time out, reports it and has the timer start the clock. Scorer then tells the R that Visitors, in fact, had no timeouts left and that earlier she had made a mistake and should have said Home had 1time out and Visitors had 0. (The 16 year old scorer just reversed the time outs and there was no visitor book to cross check). R now assesses a tech to the Visitors. Visitor coach is understandably upset having taken a time out that she was informed she had and then assessed a tech for not having it. The tech was assessed, both shots made, and she lost by 1 point.

Once the time out had been granted, was there any other option than the one we took?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Interesting. You have a local rules interpreter that advocates ignoring a very plainly written rule. And you haven't found any officials at all in your area that would also also follow a plainly written rule--for whatever reasons. And you've got a state final official that also wouldn't follow a plainly written rule. A state final official that would grant a TO, find out that it's an excess TO, and then cancel the TO so that he didn't have to call a "T". I'd love to see your state final official make that call at the end of a state championship game. Fwiw and if it'll make you feel better, Chris Webber would probably agree with that state official in a heartbeat though . Methinks that your area has a heckuva lot of work to do in the education of their officials. Note that's jmo.

In my experience, I don't know one good official that wouldn't make that call. They might not like the rule personally and they also personally might not want to follow the rule, but they would do it. the caveat obviously is that I and they are not in your area(I think).

And information from the scorebook is..well... official? Cool. Gee, I take it that under that philosophy we can't go back and correct any scorer's errors made under rule 2-10 or fix any scorer's mistakes under rule 2-11-11 either. Heckuva idea ...and a heckuva rules interpreter you got there, Coach. Btw, mentioning rule 2-11-11, I guess your rules interpreter never read the l'il sentence in there that says "A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score. Nope, once it's entered in the scorebook, it's ..well...official.

And right there, folks, you'll find the biggest difference between how a coach thinks and how an official thinks. A coach thinks that a rule should only be valid and enforced if it's fair to his team in his opinion. An official knows that the rules were written trying to be fair to BOTH teams, and that if we won't follow a plainly written rule it not only gives an unfair advantage to one team but it unfairly penalizes the other team at the same time. You only worry about YOUR team, coach. But we have to worry about BOTH teams. And if we don't call that deserved "T" in the play being discussed, we just screwed the other team.

Sorry, coach, we completely disagree philosophically on this one and we always will.

JR,
First of all, once I got beyond my view, I am only the messenger. At the same time, there are a few other interesting aspects to this situation. Keep in mind that in this case -- and ALL cases, there are TWO coaches. I am typically the coach with at least one or two timeouts left. My trusty scorekeeper is always working directly with the official book when he is not the official book to confirm all timeouts. It is a very rare game, indeed, when I do not know EXACTLY how many timeouts I have left. But, that is another discussion.

Per the original post, BOTH coaches were informed of the timeout situation. Apparently, the home coach was OK when told he was out of timeouts. He likely would have heard that the other team had one timeout left, as well. If he had a problem with the accuracy of the book, this would have provided a great time to argue for an additional timeout, if he did, in fact, deserve it. Yet, he said NOTHING. Therefore, when that timeout was called, I am guessing that the home coach did not feel as though he was getting "screwed" ME THINKS he thought that the officials properly permitted his opponent to receive his/her fifth and final timeout.

In this situation, the "Official Book" SPOKE -- rather than just being written. Neither my rules interpreter nor I believe that a book CANNOT be changed. However, if the book was SPOKEN officially to indicate one thing, the book better be SPOKEN again to correct the error. This should mean, sounding the horn (TWO MINUTES elapsed in the post -- NO EXCUSE for not conveying this information to the game officials AND the coaches) to officially CHANGE the book.

My concern is that what actually may have happened here is that someone may have gotten into the ear of the 16 year old scorekeeper and convinced her to change the book -- quite probably "screwing" the visiting team.

This "convenient" HOME TEAM official book change CLEARLY was a MAjOR benefit to the HOME TEAM. If you are OK with that, that is fine. But, as you have stated we philosophically disagree that an on-the-fly "stealth" change is "fair" and within the rules. I -- eitther as an official, as the visiting coach, as the home coach or as a coach simply watching the game feel that such a change to the official scorebook should require notification that such a change has taken place -- keep in mind, the scorer kept his/her little "secret" (the change is timeouts remaining) for a FULL ONE HUNDRED TWENTY SECONDS!!! Failure to notify a change in the book in this case is a failure to make a change and we are going with what the scorer's documentation last indicated.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Ultimate responsibility for knowing how many time outs have been called lies with the coach. That's why the T for calling an excess TO goes to the coach, not the scorer or the team or (ha) the official.

The scorer and officials do their best to assist with that count. But just as we help with but don't bear responsibility for ensuring the proper number of players on the court, we help with but don't bear responsibility for teams taking the correct number of TO's.

The ultimate "keeper of the information" is the SCORER NOT the COACH. So, if I have called two timeouts in a game -- and I KNOW I have called two timeouts -- BUT, the official book says I have called FIVE, then I have ZERO left. As wrong as this may be, the official book says I have none left -- and I am informed by the official/scorer that I have none left -- I have no timeouts left.

It does NOT MATTER that the coach has actually only called two timeouts. The book is what matters. So, it is NOT THE COACH who is ultimately responsible for counting timeouts, it is the official scorer.

If the official scorer documents one thing, communicates that information to the coaches and then changes the documenation, but fails to communicate said change to the coaches, well.....

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

The ultimate "keeper of the information" is the SCORER NOT the COACH. So, if I have called two timeouts in a game -- and I KNOW I have called two timeouts -- BUT, the official book says I have called FIVE, then I have ZERO left. As wrong as this may be, the official book says I have none left -- and I am informed by the official/scorer that I have none left -- I have no timeouts left.

It does NOT MATTER that the coach has actually only called two timeouts. The book is what matters. So, it is NOT THE COACH who is ultimately responsible for counting timeouts, it is the official scorer.

Yes, but if you were told you were out and you knew you had one left, would you not at least ask them to verify?

I agree this is like 6 players on the court. We try to stop it every time, and are instructed to count and not start a throw-in until each team has 5, but it's still up to the coach to count them.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No.

But, you could have avoided the situation by not telling the coach she had one left. Only inform them when they have zero left.

OK, Bob, a question. Since many an official on this forum thinks that coaches are pretty much ignorant about many things, this situation is not a stretch.

Let's say that a coach is not certain how many timeouts he has used. I know that this could never happen to an official since we never forget details like this, but this is a coach. How can the coach get the official information regarding timeouts he/she has left (I ROUTINELY here coaches ask this question during the course of the game)? Or is it impossible to get reliable information from a scorer?

Isn't this a reasonable request? Or is the number of timeouts used/remaining something that the official scorer can manipulate throughout the game. Any time a tight game is going down to the wire, this would be an accidental "gaffe" that the home scorer could communicate to the visiting team -- yeah, buddy, you have one timeout left when in reality the visiting team had none.

So, is a coach's request for the accurate number of timeouts he has left a reasonable one to ask of the official scorer? Isn't the accuracy of this information somewhat germaine to the game?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

This "convenient" HOME TEAM official book change CLEARLY was a MAjOR benefit to the HOME TEAM.

Could be, but the play was also called correctly by rule.

OK, let me ask you a question....and forget about home and visitors.....the scorebook is supposed to be neutral. And mistakes will made honestly.

You're the coach of a team in a state high school championship game. Your team has never been in a state championship game before, let alone won one. You're down by 1 point with 10 seconds to go. The opposing team has a spot throw-in under your basket after you called your last timeout. You're pressing naturally and you've also told your players to foul immediately if they can't steal the ball on the throw-in. The thrower is up to a 4-count, which you know by watching the official's arm, when the thrower asks for a timeout. The timeout is granted. You now hear the scorer tell the official that the opposing team didn't have any timeouts left. The official responds by telling the scorer that it's OK and it isn't a technical foul because your opponents weren't exactly sure how many TO's they had left. Soooooo, you tell me....are you, the coach who just spent hundreds of hours with your kids getting them ready for a state championship game, now gonna say "Gee, that's fair. I agree with that completely."?

Be honest.

Btw, if you need to call another timeout also, do you think that you should be able to now take another one too--because "fair's fair"? Or is that concept only good for one team at a time? And if you do call an extra timeout and get a "T" for it, are you just gonna nod your head and say "Gee, I agree with that call too. That's different"?

[Texas Aggie]

Only inform them when they have zero left.

I quit doing even that a long time ago.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

I quit doing even that a long time ago.

What other rules do you not follow? Do you keep a list and hand the list to your coaches, and partner, before each game?

Team A has only one game left, and needs one more win, to make the state tournament. The scorekeeper informs you that Team A has used all five of their timeouts, but you choose not to inform the Team A Coach, in fact, you quit doing that a long time ago. Ten seconds left, Team A is up by one. Possession arrow gives Team B the next alternating possession. A1 is trapped in the corner of his frontcourt, with the official approaching the end of his five second count, and with A1 in danger of having a held ball called between himself, and B1, who already has one hand on the ball. Team A coach requests, and is granted a timeout, his sixth, which leads to Team B making both technical foul free throws, successfully inbounding the ball at the division line, and winning the game. After the game the losing coach explains to the local media that he didn't realize that he had used his last timeout because he was never informed by an official and he is one of the few coaches in the state that knows most of the rules and cites: NFHS 2-11-6: The scorer shall: record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.

Now, how do you explain that to your assigner when he calls you the next morning.

I wish I can recall who posted it, but an esteemed member once said, and I'm paraphrasing here, it's always really easy to explain problem situations when you follow the rules. I suggest that you take his words to heart, and even though you quit following this rule a long time ago, that you change your ways, and start following this rule starting in your next game.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

After the game the losing coach explains to the local media that he didn't realize that he had used his last timeout because he can't count to five

Fixed it for ya'.

[chseagle]

There's been a few times this year that I've had to remind the home/official book to put down the timeouts

For the Varsity games, the person that does the home/official book keeps track of the timeouts, AP, & Running score (marking a progressive score in the margins of the scorebook).

Just wish that those that did JV & C-Squad books did the same thing.

[Adam]

I guess that surprises me, as I've never had an issue with this even in JV and C squad games. I don't even remember having a problem in middle school, AAU, or anything else.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Ultimate responsibility for knowing how many time outs have been called lies with the coach. That's why the T for calling an excess TO goes to the coach, not the scorer or the team or (ha) the official.

I'm surprised that no one has corrected this statement yet. Requesting an excessive time-out is a TEAM technical foul per 10-1-7. It is not charged directly or indirectly to the head coach.