bad information

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

....the losing coach explains to the local media that he didn't realize that he had used his last timeout because he was never informed by an official.....

Is it a rule for the official to inform the coach? Yes.


Is this the same thing as the OP? I don't think so. Official fails to notify coach of no timeouts. An oversight. Oops.

How many coaches enter the game thinking: When I call my last timeout, the officials will tell me. I'd say not very many.

Official tells coach he has one, when in fact he has none. Potentially a major screwup.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I guess that surprises me, as I've never had an issue with this even in JV and C squad games. I don't even remember having a problem in middle school, AAU, or anything else.

I've mentioned this before, but basically those that do the JV & C-Squad books seem to have no formal training. The personnel doing the Sub-Varsity books have done it for at least a season normally, however the coaches never have taken the time to train them in their duties, or that they are supposed to be neutral while at the table.

I actually warned the visiting book during both the JV Girls' & C-Squad Boys' games that they could not cheer or make remarks at the table, or I would see that they be replaced.

During the Girls' Varsity game, the visitiing book was yelling at the officials about calls, but the scoreboard operator gave him the "if looks could kill" & thankfully he got the hint to be quiet.

Yes, the official book should be keeping track of the fouls, the score, timeouts, & AP, however everyone doing scorebook (both official & non-official) need to be properly trained so that both books should be keeping track of everything.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Could be, but the play was also called correctly by rule.

OK, let me ask you a question....and forget about home and visitors.....the scorebook is supposed to be neutral. And mistakes will made honestly.

You're the coach of a team in a state high school championship game. Your team has never been in a state championship game before, let alone won one. You're down by 1 point with 10 seconds to go. The opposing team has a spot throw-in under your basket after you called your last timeout. You're pressing naturally and you've also told your players to foul immediately if they can't steal the ball on the throw-in. The thrower is up to a 4-count, which you know by watching the official's arm, when the thrower asks for a timeout. The timeout is granted. You now hear the scorer tell the official that the opposing team didn't have any timeouts left. The official responds by telling the scorer that it's OK and it isn't a technical foul because your opponents weren't exactly sure how many TO's they had left. Soooooo, you tell me....are you, the coach who just spent hundreds of hours with your kids getting them ready for a state championship game, now gonna say "Gee, that's fair. I agree with that completely."?

Be honest.

Btw, if you need to call another timeout also, do you think that you should be able to now take another one too--because "fair's fair"? Or is that concept only good for one team at a time? And if you do call an extra timeout and get a "T" for it, are you just gonna nod your head and say "Gee, I agree with that call too. That's different"?

JR,
Good scenario. First of all, I am going to know how many timeouts I have and my opponents have in this situation. because I am going to go to the source -- the official scorer (with confirmation with my scorer). If there is a discrepancy, the official scorer's information is the one that matters (see my post in regards to indicating that even if I KNOW I have only called four timeouts, if the OFFICIAL SCORER says we have called five, that is the OFFICIAL answer). Therefore, there will not be uncertainty as I have gotten the information from the OFFICIAL SCORER.

Keep in mind, to make your situation close to the OP, my opposing coach was formally told he had ONE TIMEOUT remaining. I would be asking the question of the scorer the timeout situation for both teams. Therefore, I would know how many timeouts, if any, both of us have. If the count gets to four, I will know whether we are one second from a turnover or whether we are likely going to have to put a defensive stop together, again.

I brought up this situation at one of our association's meeting tonight. I specifically asked the question of the local interpreter from this association -- different from the other interpreter I mentioned earlier. Initially, he indicated that a technical foul had to be called by rule. The more I explained -- 16 year old scorer, no visitor scorer, etc. -- the more he became troubled by the situation. He indicated that he would ask for all timeout information throughout the game. In the event that the scorer did not indicate specifics of the timeouts, he indicated that this would be "problematic."

Nearly all officials I asked to give their opinion indicated they would not issue a technical foul since the official book indicated four timeouts had been used.

This is the issue, Jurassic. When is "official" official? I understand that a scorer can make an administrative change until the score has been verified. But, would you agree that this situation is at least somewhat troubling? Keeping track of five timeouts during a heated game can be a challenge for a coach. We are relying on the accuracy of the official scorer (with our scorer keeping a record for comparison as well). Unlike the situation that you proposed to me, in the OP, there was no dispute that the scorer through the official had passed along inaccurate information. in the OP. Unlike your situation, the coach clearly thought he had a timeout left because the OFFICIAL SOURCE of such information had CONFIRMED it.

While the OP did not give intimate details of the situation leading to the timeout, there is a possibility that the team was under little to no duress. In your situation, if my opposing coach did not call a timeout, it would have resulted in a turnover -- possibly. If the coach had been informed that he had no timeouts left, he would have no argument. Even if he had not been informed, I could live with the coach or team being responsible for asking for the official information.

But, in the OP, the coach had been given specific information that HE HAD ONE TIMEOUT remaining. This is what I am struggling with in this situation. If the coach had PRESUMED he had a timeout left, the coach would be wrong -- technical foul would have been well earned (Chris Weber would fit into this category). If the coach had relied on his own scorer, the coach would be wrong -- once again, a technical foul would have been earned. But, in this case, the coach went directly to the source -- actually, the information was provided from the source via the official came to him. There was NO intention to "cheat" the other team by taking an extra timeout. He was merely calling a timeout that he had been OFFICIALLY TOLD he had -- there was no dispute, there was no confusion.

The number of timeouts a team has remaining is one of the most important pieces of information a scorer is responsible for tracking accurately. I have a real problem with a scorer making such a MAJOR change without communicating this information to the officials and the coaches. Remember, in the OP, two minutes had elapsed. Certainly, enough time to communicate the change to the officials and coaches.

The scorer has, quite possibly, cost this team a chance to win a game because they make a change in their book AND INFORMED NO ONE.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I've mentioned this before, but basically those that do the JV & C-Squad books seem to have no formal training. The personnel doing the Sub-Varsity books have done it for at least a season normally, however the coaches never have taken the time to train them in their duties, or that they are supposed to be neutral while at the table.

I actually warned the visiting book during both the JV Girls' & C-Squad Boys' games that they could not cheer or make remarks at the table, or I would see that they be replaced.

During the Girls' Varsity game, the visitiing book was yelling at the officials about calls, but the scoreboard operator gave him the "if looks could kill" & thankfully he got the hint to be quiet.

Yes, the official book should be keeping track of the fouls, the score, timeouts, & AP, however everyone doing scorebook (both official & non-official) need to be properly trained so that both books should be keeping track of everything.

I'm not questioning your experience, just saying it's vastly different where I have officiated; three metro areas in two different states. I have never had an issue, ever.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not questioning your experience, just saying it's vastly different where I have officiated; three metro areas in two different states. I have never had an issue, ever.

Very true different localities, different experiences.

It's interesting seeing the differences between schools even 2-4 hours apart.

At least we have no change of Varsity Scorebook personnel, & they've had proper training.

I've done what I can to train the personnel that do the Sub-varsity scorebooks, but they seem to be too involved in their own world.

Basically all I can do is just do my best to keep track of the score & fouls, while also keeping track of the shot clock & the AP.

I even told the home scorebook person one time that they'd have full responsibility of keeping track of the personal fouls (Did that the game after last for Boys' C-Squad), it did make a difference.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Basically all I can do is just do my best to keep track of the score & fouls, while also keeping track of the shot clock & the AP.

Originally Posted by chseagle

During the Boys' C-Squad game the other night, V13 had a black undershirt on underneath a red jersey. During a dead ball, I buzzed the horn & asked about the player having the different undershirt color than jersey.......

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

I quit doing even that a long time ago.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Official fails to notify coach of no timeouts. An oversight. Oops.

Texas Aggie's post does not sound like an oversight.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Official tells coach he has one, when in fact he has none. Potentially a major screwup.

Which is why it's not in the rulebook, casebook, or mechanics manual.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

I quit doing even that a long time ago.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Is it a rule for the official to inform the coach? Yes.


Is this the same thing as the OP? I don't think so. Official fails to notify coach of no timeouts. An oversight. Oops.

How many coaches enter the game thinking: When I call my last timeout, the officials will tell me. I'd say not very many.

Official tells coach he has one, when in fact he has none. Potentially a major screwup.

I must confess, I just don't understand this -- and, yes, this could be another reason for a divide between coaches and officials.

Why is it that NO ONE wants to take a SIMPLE RESPONSIBILITY of notifying a coach OFFICIALLY about something as important as how many TIMEOUTS he/she has left????

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Why is it that NO ONE wants to take a SIMPLE RESPONSIBILITY of notifying a coach OFFICIALLY about something as important as how many TIMEOUTS he/she has left????

Because that's the scorer's job, not the officials.

It's that simple, coach. We don't keep track of fouls either and that info is probably just as important to a coach..

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

1) When is "official" official?

2) But, would you agree that this situation is at least somewhat troubling?

1) As soon as the scorer told me that a team had just taken an excess timeout, that information would be "official". Whether there was a bookkeeping mistake made beforehand is irrelevant rules-wise. We have to go with the correct information. We don't get a choice in this situation.

2) Yup, it's troubling. But the fact that it's troubling is also completely irrelevant rules-wise.

I've kicked this one to death and I'm just repeating myself. Time for me to let it go (I hope).

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) As soon as the scorer told me that a team had just taken an excess timeout, that information would be "official". Whether there was a bookkeeping mistake made beforehand is irrelevant rules-wise. We have to go with the correct information. We don't get a choice in this situation.

Situation: Team A HC requests and is granted a TO. Scorer informs official that this is an excess TO. Official rules a T and awards Team B 2 FTs. A) Before the official puts the ball at the disposal of B1 for the division line throw-in; or B) About 2 minutes later (including several live and dead balls, etc.); the scorer buzzes the officials and says that he erred; the timeout that team A had taken was actually their 5th and Team B was actually the one out of time outs. What is the ruling?

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Because that's the scorer's job, not the officials.

It's that simple, coach. We don't keep track of fouls either and that info is probably just as important to a coach..

That's fine, JR. BUT, the scorer IS a part of our team, is he/she not? I don't understand why the TEAM cannot take responsibility for this -- other than the fact that OFFICIALS KNOW that there are issues here and they are trying to disassociate themselves from it.

Based on the numerous responses from fellow officials, many appear to want to stay as far away from this as humanly possible -- even going to the point of not communicating that a coach has taken his/her final timeout.

I view game management as a very important part of my job. I want to make sure that the scorers' information agrees. I want to make sure that the book matches the board during the game. This does include making sure THROUGHOUT THE GAME that the running score, the number of individual fouls, the number of team fouls, the number of timeouts, the status of team DOG warnings, etc. are all in agreement. If a coach wants to know OFFICIALLY how many fouls a player has, I want the scorer to be able to accurately relay that information to the coach. If a coach wants to know OFFICIALLY how many fouls his team has in a particular half, I want the scorer to ba able to accurately relay that information to the coach. If a coach wants to know how many timeouts a particular team has (the coach's own team OR the other team), I expect the scorer to be able to relay this information accurately to the coach.

These items are ALL a part of game management. As a referee/official doing a game, this is still a part of our jobs. Would you agree that if a particular official consistently has "official book" problems that this particular official would be less likely to get the opportunity to work a state level game in the first place?

Please note: this is NOT in regard to the OP, but rather your opinion on our role in game managment.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by sseltser

Situation: Team A HC requests and is granted a TO. Scorer informs official that this is an excess TO. Official rules a T and awards Team B 2 FTs. A) Before the official puts the ball at the disposal of B1 for the division line throw-in; or B) About 2 minutes later (including several live and dead balls, etc.); the scorer buzzes the officials and says that he erred; the timeout that team A had taken was actually their 5th and Team B was actually the one out of time outs. What is the ruling?

a) correctable error. No different than the case plays where a 1-1 or 2-shot "bonus" is shot in error.

b) no longer correctable.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by sseltser

Situation: Team A HC requests and is granted a TO. Scorer informs official that this is an excess TO. Official rules a T and awards Team B 2 FTs. A) Before the official puts the ball at the disposal of B1 for the division line throw-in; or B) About 2 minutes later (including several live and dead balls, etc.); the scorer buzzes the officials and says that he erred; the timeout that team A had taken was actually their 5th and Team B was actually the one out of time outs. What is the ruling?

We've discussed this question before.
A) got us into a big discussion on the use of the correctable error rule and its possible application to this situation.
B) was pretty much agreed that it was too late to fix anything so live with it and file a report to the governing authority.