bad information

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Please note: this is NOT in regard to the OP, but rather your opinion on our role in game managment.

Agreed that the more the official knows about the game, the better the official is able to head off problems before they occur. IT's in the same vein as 6 players on the court -- the official should count before putting the ball in play, but if they don't, then the team gets penalized. And, of the things an official needs to know / remember / perform -- knowing TOs and team fouls are down on the list.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Agreed that the more the official knows about the game, the better the official is able to head off problems before they occur. IT's in the same vein as 6 players on the court -- the official should count before putting the ball in play, but if they don't, then the team gets penalized. And, of the things an official needs to know / remember / perform -- knowing TOs and team fouls are down on the list.

Bob,
For the most part, I agree with the six players on the court penalty. I say the most part only because I WOULD NEVER issue a technical foul in the case that was presented on this board several weeks back in which one official beckoned the player onto the floor, one of his partners put the ball into play, and his other partner called a technical foul on that team for having six players on the court (while the sub was running onto the court and before the replaced player was off the court) because play had been improperly resumed by one of the officials. In the general case of six players, a COACH sent a player onto the court (indirectly through the scorer's table or directly when coming out of a timeout). While a whipping with a wet noodle is due the officiating crew for allowing this to happen, this action was initiated by the COACH.

As officials, we should know the game situations to the extent that we can. If a team likely to want to request a timeout, it helps to have a sense that one team is gaining momentum, etc. While we cannot possibly know how many fouls a team has during a half, the number of individual fouls each player has, the number of timeouts a team has, a member of our team (the official scorer) certainly needs to have this information at his/her disposal throughout the game.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Agreed that the more the official knows about the game, the better the official is able to head off problems before they occur. IT's in the same vein as 6 players on the court -- the official should count before putting the ball in play, but if they don't, then the team gets penalized. And, of the things an official needs to know / remember / perform -- knowing TOs and team fouls are down on the list.

I must be in the minority here, but late in the game I absolutely want to know the timeout situation. Mainly because once a team uses its last 30-second timeout or last 60-second timeout, I know what they have left so I don't spend 10 seconds asking the coach what he wants, only to be told by him he only has 30-second timeouts left. I also make sure both books agree on the number of timeouts. If I've gone to that amount of trouble and the scorer and visiting book (on their own, without informing me or the teams) change the number of timeouts available, well, I'm not sure what I would do. Hasn't happened to me yet and I refuse to put myself in a corner on the Internet.

For me, it's no different from knowing when a team has 6 team fouls. Is it necessary information? No. I frequently will point at a shooter as a non-calling official and say "shooter" on a 5th or 6th team foul anyway (no harm getting a shooter even though it's not a bonus situation) but normally when it's 6 or 9, I like to be able to communicate that with my partners so we're all prepared for the bonus situation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

While we cannot possibly know how many fouls a team has during a half, the number of individual fouls each player has, the number of timeouts a team has, a member of our team (the official scorer) certainly needs to have this information at his/her disposal throughout the game.

I might disagree on some of that.

And, while I agree that the scorer should have this information, there are no "correctable error" provisions if the wrong TO information is given.

In fact, wasn't there an interp that indicates that a T for excessive TO can be given well after the fact?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Bob,
For the most part, I agree with the six players on the court penalty. I say the most part only because I WOULD NEVER issue a technical foul in the case that was presented on this board several weeks back in which one official beckoned the player onto the floor, one of his partners put the ball into play, and his other partner called a technical foul on that team for having six players on the court (while the sub was running onto the court and before the replaced player was off the court) because play had been improperly resumed by one of the officials. In the general case of six players, a COACH sent a player onto the court (indirectly through the scorer's table or directly when coming out of a timeout). While a whipping with a wet noodle is due the officiating crew for allowing this to happen, this action was initiated by the COACH.

As officials, we should know the game situations to the extent that we can. If a team likely to want to request a timeout, it helps to have a sense that one team is gaining momentum, etc. While we cannot possibly know how many fouls a team has during a half, the number of individual fouls each player has, the number of timeouts a team has, a member of our team (the official scorer) certainly needs to have this information at his/her disposal throughout the game.

We agree on this, but mainly because I don't drop my hand until the player subbed for has left the court. Partner cannot put it in play (in my mind) with my hand up, so if he tries, I hit my whistle and stop him from doing so.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

1) I view game management as a very important part of my job. I want to make sure that the scorers' information agrees. I want to make sure that the book matches the board during the game. This does include making sure THROUGHOUT THE GAME that the running score, the number of individual fouls, the number of team fouls, the number of timeouts, the status of team DOG warnings, etc. are all in agreement. If a coach wants to know OFFICIALLY how many fouls a player has, I want the scorer to be able to accurately relay that information to the coach. If a coach wants to know OFFICIALLY how many fouls his team has in a particular half, I want the scorer to ba able to accurately relay that information to the coach. If a coach wants to know how many timeouts a particular team has (the coach's own team OR the other team), I expect the scorer to be able to relay this information accurately to the coach.

2) Would you agree that if a particular official consistently has "official book" problems that this particular official would be less likely to get the opportunity to work a state level game in the first place?

1) And most if not all officials agree with you imo and feel exactly the same way that you do also. Do you really think that we want screw-ups in our game? But sh!t happens!!!!! And if it does, we have to go by the rules that are given to us. It's that simple.

2) Nope, I'd disagree completely. I'd never blame an official for the scorer screwing up. Ever! And I say that knowing that in my area I get to pick officials to work at those levels. I judge officials on how they respond to book problems. And believe me, they are sureashell not rated highly by me if they do NOT use the rules available to them to correct the problems. The bottom line remains that we can't make up our own rules if there is a rule already in place that covers the situation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

And, while I agree that the scorer should have this information, there are no "correctable error" provisions if the wrong TO information is given.

In fact, wasn't there an interp that indicates that a T for excessive TO can be given well after the fact?

Situation 11 of the 2007-08 Interps stated that the penalty for an excess TO is assessed when discovered.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...s-archive.html

Heckuva memory, Bob....

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

JR,
My concern is that what actually may have happened here is that someone may have gotten into the ear of the 16 year old scorekeeper and convinced her to change the book -- quite probably "screwing" the visiting team.

This "convenient" HOME TEAM official book change CLEARLY was a MAjOR benefit to the HOME TEAM. If you are OK with that, that is fine. But, as you have stated we philosophically disagree that an on-the-fly "stealth" change is "fair" and within the rules. I -- eitther as an official, as the visiting coach, as the home coach or as a coach simply watching the game feel that such a change to the official scorebook should require notification that such a change has taken place -- keep in mind, the scorer kept his/her little "secret" (the change is timeouts remaining) for a FULL ONE HUNDRED TWENTY SECONDS!!! Failure to notify a change in the book in this case is a failure to make a change and we are going with what the scorer's documentation last indicated.

In the OP, it was relayed that this was a simple communication mistake. One team was out of TOs, one had one left, unfortunately the scorer "flipped" them accidentally when communicating to the official. While regrettable, mistakes happen and the correct procedure is that when the excessive TO was granted and the scorer realized what had happened, a T was the appropriate call.

Coach's post took the OP to a different level. If you, as an official, believe the scorer changed what was in the book (not just miscommunicated, but got out his pencil and eraser and changed the book), then a quick investigation is in order relative to when the TOs were recorded, exactly what happened, etc. If that leads you to the point where you know the book was purposefully changed you (may) have other remedies available, up to and including flagrant technical fouls, to deal with the situation. And if in that discussion you realize that it wasn't an excessive TO, you don't have a technical foul.

What we're dealing with in the OP is miscommunication and the only remedy is enforcing the rules.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

In fact, wasn't there an interp that indicates that a T for excessive TO can be given well after the fact?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Situation 11 of the 2007-08 Interps stated that the penalty for an excess TO is assessed when discovered.

2007-08 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 11: A1 requests and is granted an excessive time-out. The excessive time-out is discovered (a) immediately; (b) when A1 has the ball at his/her disposal for a throw-in following the time-out; (c) during a dead ball after three minutes have elapsed off the game clock. RULING: In (a), (b) and (c), assess a team technical foul to Team A for the excessive time-out. Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in. The penalty for an excessive time-out is assessed when discovered. (10-1-7 Penalty)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Because that's the scorer's job, not the officials.

I hope that you mean that it's not the officials job to tell the coach how many time outs he has left, except for when the coach has none left.

NFHS 2-11-6: The scorer shall: record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Below is a link to the "Instructions to & Duties of the Scorer for Basketball Games"

http://www.nfhs.org/Workarea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2867

Under "Notify the Nearer Official" it states:
1. The bonus penalty is in effect for the 7th, 8th & 9th team foul in each half. The bonus display indicates a second free throw is awarded for all common fouls (other than player-control) if the first free throw is successful. The proper bonus panel, such as (H for home & V for visitor) shall be displayed after the penalty for the sixth team foul has been administered. Another method is to activate a light or device nearest the basket of the team which is to receive the bonus.
2. The 10th team foul occurs each half. Thereafter, the bonus (2nd free throw) is awarded for a common foul (except player control) whether or not the first is successful.

I have that document and the NFHS really needs to update it to reflect the team control foul rule change from a few years back.