Block? Charge? No call?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

I agree by rule they are allowed to lean. However, if they lean and the contact is marginal, it's a flop and a no call. You have to ask yourself, what caused the displacement more? The lean or the contact. In the above video, I don't believe the contact was marginal. It was PC all the way. The defender would have been displaced even if he wasn't leaning.

We're mostly in alignment, but I'm saying whether the lean contributed to the fall isn't relevant. To me, if the lean would have caused him to fall without contact, then the contact is incidental. If the contact contributed to the fall, however, then it's a foul even if the contact might not have caused him to fall if he wasn't leaning. Leaning is legal, so he shouldn't be punished (by allowing another player to knock him down) for doing it.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

We're mostly in alignment, but I'm saying whether the lean contributed to the fall isn't relevant. To me, if the lean would have caused him to fall without contact, then the contact is incidental. If the contact contributed to the fall, however, then it's a foul even if the contact might not have caused him to fall if he wasn't leaning. Leaning is legal, so he shouldn't be punished (by allowing another player to knock him down) for doing it.

But contact is legal too. This is a contact sport. The only contact we penalize is the contact that causes displacement or provides an advantage or disadvantage. If the player is leaning and the contact is marginal, even though it may have contributed to it, I've got a no call. Otherwise, if the offensive player barely touches the chest of the defender while the player is falling back, I would have to call PC. I'm not going to do that. I doubt you will either. Also, I don't believe the rule book really uses the term lean, but it does say that the player can move and brace for the impact. There are better ways to brace for an impact than to lean. However, leaning is moving so it is allowed. But they lean to draw the foul. That is why we can call ( I haven't done it yet) a T for flopping. It's a HTBT and a judgment call. I don't believe either one of our positions is wrong nor are we that far apart on this. My thing is by leaning the defender is already placing themselves in a disadvantageous position. They are putting themselves in a position to be displaced by the slightest of contact to draw a foul. It has to be more than marginal for me to call a PC. It's one of those things that you know it when you see it or at least we should, if we are refereing the defense.

[IUgrad92]

Defender established LGP, I have a PC as well.

Had a D1 official talk at our association meeting the other night and went through a good number of block/charge college video clips and broke them down. The terminology that I really picked up on was "to or through", meaning did the offensive player go 'to' the defender or did he go 'through' the defender.

This particular video, the offensive player clearly goes through the defender. He also mentioned that if you have 2 players on the ground as a result from a drive to the basket, the crew better come out with something (block or charge). And if you have to come in with a late whistle, because no one else took it, so be it. And when in doubt, you give the offensive player the benefit of the doubt.

So it sounds like an emphasis at the college level. We have been emphasizing "having a call when both players go to the ground" in our area as well and is definitely a pre-game point of discussion.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Defender established LGP, I have a PC as well.

Had a D1 official talk at our association meeting the other night and went through a good number of block/charge college video clips and broke them down. The terminology that I really picked up on was "to or through", meaning did the offensive player go 'to' the defender or did he go 'through' the defender.

This particular video, the offensive player clearly goes through the defender. He also mentioned that if you have 2 players on the ground as a result from a drive to the basket, the crew better come out with something (block or charge). And if you have to come in with a late whistle, because no one else took it, so be it. And when in doubt, you give the offensive player the benefit of the doubt.

So it sounds like an emphasis at the college level. We have been emphasizing "having a call when both players go to the ground" in our area as well and is definitely a pre-game point of discussion.

I like this A LOT.

[Clark Kent]

I'm T (so pick him apart all you want....that's why I posted it was to get opinion and feedback) in this play.

I felt like he went through the defender and there was too much contact to pass on, so no call really wasn't an option.

My initial thought was that since it came out of my primary and on my side of the lane it was my call and was a bit surprised that my partner blew on this play, but after watching the video it was a secondary defender that slid over so it makes more sense to me now why he blew. We discussed it and I asked what he had before he dropped his arm and he said he was going with a block because he thought the kid had gotten there late.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

I'm T (so pick him apart all you want....that's why I posted it was to get opinion and feedback) in this play.

I felt like he went through the defender and there was too much contact to pass on, so no call really wasn't an option.

My initial thought was that since it came out of my primary and on my side of the lane it was my call and was a bit surprised that my partner blew on this play, but after watching the video it was a secondary defender that slid over so it makes more sense to me now why he blew. We discussed it and I asked what he had before he dropped his arm and he said he was going with a block because he thought the kid had gotten there late.

I'd say he really wasn't refereeing the defense, then.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

I'm T (so pick him apart all you want....that's why I posted it was to get opinion and feedback) in this play.

I felt like he went through the defender and there was too much contact to pass on, so no call really wasn't an option.

My initial thought was that since it came out of my primary and on my side of the lane it was my call and was a bit surprised that my partner blew on this play, but after watching the video it was a secondary defender that slid over so it makes more sense to me now why he blew. We discussed it and I asked what he had before he dropped his arm and he said he was going with a block because he thought the kid had gotten there late.

Your arms went up. Did you complete the preliminary signal? If so, do you think that played a part in what your partner went with?

Did you guys discuss how to handle double whistles in your pregame?

[Clark Kent]

yup my arms went up and started to waive off the shot when I realized we had a double, so I dropped them and looked at my partner who dropped his arm and nodded at me to take it. So I went PC.

At halftime we chatted about it and I asked him what he had and he said he had a block because he thought the player got there late. It made me question the play in my head more.

We did much better the second half with very few if any double whistles.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

yup my arms went up and started to waive off the shot when I realized we had a double, so I dropped them and looked at my partner who dropped his arm and nodded at me to take it. So I went PC.

At halftime we chatted about it and I asked him what he had and he said he had a block because he thought the player got there late. It made me question the play in my head more.

We did much better the second half with very few if any double whistles.

It seems that the consensus is that this was a PC which is what you called in the end. So you did well there.
I would advise you to sharpen up your mechanics. When calling a foul we need to blow the whistle and put a fist in the air. That is exactly what your partner did on this play, but you skipped the fist and went straight to a two-handed wave off of the shot. You need to break that habit immediately.

Also get in the practice of only waving off a shot if it actually goes in and you aren't going to count it, otherwise there is no reason to do so.

So I would say that you did better on the judgment side, but that your partner did better with mechanics.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

So it sounds like an emphasis at the college level. We have been emphasizing "having a call when both players go to the ground" in our area as well and is definitely a pre-game point of discussion.

Interesting. This sounds like a good idea since this would fall under the "call the obvious" category.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Interesting. This sounds like a good idea since this would fall under the "call the obvious" category.

But not as "obvious" as one would think. I believe there is at least one veteran official and contributor on here that believe a 'no call' would be best on this play. And I doubt he's the only one with that philosophy.

Hence, why it is a good topic for pre-game, unless you are working with partners that you've worked with previously and know their philosophy.