JUCO misery

[chartrusepengui]

Boys JUCO. Close game - 1-2 point differential all night. Good game overall.

But - working with two others I did not know at all. Called by AD at noon to do game that night. I learned in pregame that the crew I had been assigned to had only done 2 person womens games and this was their first 3 person. I was told that I was going to be U2. Ok..... Do I need to say more!
Positioning, switching etc were, AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Early in game Team A HC gets T after being out of box and getting a little personal with partner over a call. No more problems after the T. Late in 4th qtr team B requests and is granted TO. After the warning horn #3 checks in at table and is not waved onto court. Players return to court. Lead counts players and administers ball for inbound pass.

Team A has ball deflected and there is a scramble. A2 gets ball sitting in paint. At this point Coach Team B runs onto court by trail trying to get his attention and yelling that A had 6 players on court. Trail hits whistle! HC team B is demanding that Team A's coach be given a Class A -T and be DQ'd. However, the intitial whistle was from trail for him being on court screaming without being beckoned. Wow - now he is just a little upset.

Crew gets together and confer. Yes, upon counting, team A did suddenly have 6 on the court. Sometime after partner counted and gave ball to A1 for throw-in and the scramble for deflected pass, #3 entered the court on his own. Table and team A HC confirm. So ........ HC team A was given a class B - T for #3 entering court w/o being beckoned causing 6 players from team A to be on court. Team A #3 given class B - T for entering court without being beckoned making 6 players for team A. HC - team B given a Class B - T for entering court w/o permission. Free throws follow.

Coach team B then requests and is granted TO. Following TO - team A is given ball at POI (I really had to fight for this - as they were going to give ball to team B at division line) - in this case the endline, lane line extended as A2 was holding ball sitting in paint when whistle sounded. Now Coach team B wants his TO back - because he thought his team should be getting ball. Was told that once the TO had been granted - there is nothing in place for him to get it back even if he had not yet already used it.

Team A inbounds, misses attempt and loses by 1.

Oh yeah, table crew was 18 yr old college kids and were a nightmare all by themselves.


Got home - no fermented malt beverages in fridge.

This am - the "crew leader" called me to do another game with them. I respectfully declined - already busy that night thank heavens. My head still swimming this morning. How do you get over an evening like this and get sharp for tonights game?

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

. . . the crew I had been assigned to had only done 2 person womens games and this was their first 3 person.

How in red, white, and blue blazes do 3 person first-timers get assigned to JUCO over there?
Shucks, I used to be WIAA and WISAA registered back in the '70's and would be happy to swim across the lake to do 3 person JUCO with you. When it freezes I can just walk. Let me know and I'll get the wetsuit on!

[mutantducky]

bananas and milk blended.

I'd rather have grade school to Frosh than older teens doing the table. Heck I'd rather have a kindergartner

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by Freddy

How in red, white, and blue blazes do 3 person first-timers get assigned to JUCO over there?
Shucks, I used to be WIAA and WISAA registered back in the '70's and would be happy to swim across the lake to do 3 person JUCO with you. When it freezes I can just walk. Let me know and I'll get the wetsuit on!

I do games their with my crew and just made the assumption when called, that this crew was also experienced. I've not had any other problems with this AD. If asked to join another crew at last minute again - I will be sure to ask!

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

Boys JUCO. Close game - 1-2 point differential all night. Good game overall.

But - working with two others I did not know at all. Called by AD at noon to do game that night. I learned in pregame that the crew I had been assigned to had only done 2 person womens games and this was their first 3 person. I was told that I was going to be U2. Ok..... Do I need to say more!
Positioning, switching etc were, AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Early in game Team A HC gets T after being out of box and getting a little personal with partner over a call. No more problems after the T. Late in 4th qtr team B requests and is granted TO. After the warning horn #3 checks in at table and is not waved onto court. Players return to court. Lead counts players and administers ball for inbound pass.

Team A has ball deflected and there is a scramble. A2 gets ball sitting in paint. At this point Coach Team B runs onto court by trail trying to get his attention and yelling that A had 6 players on court. Trail hits whistle! HC team B is demanding that Team A's coach be given a Class A -T and be DQ'd. However, the intitial whistle was from trail for him being on court screaming without being beckoned. Wow - now he is just a little upset.

Crew gets together and confer. Yes, upon counting, team A did suddenly have 6 on the court. Sometime after partner counted and gave ball to A1 for throw-in and the scramble for deflected pass, #3 entered the court on his own. Table and team A HC confirm. So ........ HC team A was given a class B - T for #3 entering court w/o being beckoned causing 6 players from team A to be on court. Team A #3 given class B - T for entering court without being beckoned making 6 players for team A. HC - team B given a Class B - T for entering court w/o permission. Free throws follow.

Coach team B then requests and is granted TO. Following TO - team A is given ball at POI (I really had to fight for this - as they were going to give ball to team B at division line) - in this case the endline, lane line extended as A2 was holding ball sitting in paint when whistle sounded. Now Coach team B wants his TO back - because he thought his team should be getting ball. Was told that once the TO had been granted - there is nothing in place for him to get it back even if he had not yet already used it.

Team A inbounds, misses attempt and loses by 1.

Oh yeah, table crew was 18 yr old college kids and were a nightmare all by themselves.


Got home - no fermented malt beverages in fridge.

This am - the "crew leader" called me to do another game with them. I respectfully declined - already busy that night thank heavens. My head still swimming this morning. How do you get over an evening like this and get sharp for tonights game?

Hey, I'm just across the cheddar curtain, have the shirt, and I'll provide cold beverages...........give me a jingle!

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Hey, I'm just across the cheddar curtain, have the shirt, and I'll provide cold beverages...........give me a jingle!

After the pregame bombshell - I wish I could have called. I knew I was in deep doo when I wanted to talk about rotations and got the blond deer in the headlights look, and then the one guys says - "we just switch normally" and it was too late to back out.

It really bothers me that they even took the game without ever doing 3 person. It never dawned on me that someone would actually work at that level without ANY 3 person experience, camps etc. It's one I know I have to let go - but still bothers me because of all the things I know should have been better - and it was such an evenly matched game.

[tomegun]

Do you honestly feel like the game would have been that close with an experienced crew? It may not have been.

Why didn't you talk fast and insist on going through a good pregame? I think this is where your leadership comes in and lifts the crew. If they asked you back they realize you are good enough to do the game and they want to work with you. I see it as an opportunity to see 1) college-level plays and 2) help another official get better.

You mentioned this situation happening in the 4th quarter. ?????

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

. . . and got the blond deer in the headlights look . . .

You committed a huge mixing of metaphors here, but somehow I like it.

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Do you honestly feel like the game would have been that close with an experienced crew? It may not have been.

Why didn't you talk fast and insist on going through a good pregame? I think this is where your leadership comes in and lifts the crew. If they asked you back they realize you are good enough to do the game and they want to work with you. I see it as an opportunity to see 1) college-level plays and 2) help another official get better.

You mentioned this situation happening in the 4th quarter. ?????

They were not even going to have a pregame. I insisted on it. They game would more than likely have been close even with my normal crew. When they played the first time the game went into OT with the opposite team winning on last second 3pt shot. Two very evenly matched teams at all positions. I would not want to work another game at this level with these officials until they have had an opportunity to attend a camp/clinic or at the very least have some experience at lower levels with 3 person. I would be happy to do lower level games as long as we were able to have a pregame and they would listen/learn some of the terminolgy and positioning and well as primary and secondary area coverages with 3 person. They went in thinking nothing was different - and didn't want to even discuss these things pregame. That is why I was so frustrated. I don't think they are bad guys but I believe they put themselves in a no win situation and I kind of got stuck at the last second. I have not seen them before and they may very well be great 2 person officials at the JUCO level or any other level. The calls they made were not "bad" calls just out of their area, or areas of no coverage, no rotations - even if I was lead - if I rotated - I was the only one _ even after explaining when I insisted on a pregame. We will fairly often invite someone new to go along and watch us, then include them in frosh/jv games with two of us to get them started. We usually split the 2 person fee 3 ways when we do this and call ahead and get approval from the schools first. Just not at that level the first time w/o doing homework first.

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Do you honestly feel like the game would have been that close with an experienced crew? It may not have been.

Just curious as to what you think the experience level of the crew has to do with the score? I don't recall ever hearing anything like this.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Why didn't you talk fast and insist on going through a good pregame? I think this is where your leadership comes in and lifts the crew. If they asked you back they realize you are good enough to do the game and they want to work with you. I see it as an opportunity to see 1) college-level plays and 2) help another official get better.

Do you think going over 3 person mechanics in a 15 minute pre-game is going to help the crew? I don't. You just confuse them more. I think its too late to learn 3 man when you are about to step out on the floor. That's something that needs to be handled at camps, scrimmages and then work the newbies into some low intense matchups before setting them lose on a more challenging varsity schedule. Definitely not 15 minutes before a JUCO game!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

...

Early in game Team A HC gets T after being out of box and getting a little personal with partner over a call. No more problems after the T. Late in 4th qtr team B requests and is granted TO. After the warning horn #3 checks in at table and is not waved onto court. Players return to court. Lead counts players and administers ball for inbound pass.

Team A has ball deflected and there is a scramble. A2 gets ball sitting in paint. At this point Coach Team B runs onto court by trail trying to get his attention and yelling that A had 6 players on court. Trail hits whistle! HC team B is demanding that Team A's coach be given a Class A -T and be DQ'd. However, the intitial whistle was from trail for him being on court screaming without being beckoned. Wow - now he is just a little upset.

Crew gets together and confer. Yes, upon counting, team A did suddenly have 6 on the court. Sometime after partner counted and gave ball to A1 for throw-in and the scramble for deflected pass, #3 entered the court on his own. Table and team A HC confirm. So ........ HC team A was given a class B - T for #3 entering court w/o being beckoned causing 6 players from team A to be on court. Team A #3 given class B - T for entering court without being beckoned making 6 players for team A. HC - team B given a Class B - T for entering court w/o permission. Free throws follow.

Coach team B then requests and is granted TO. Following TO - team A is given ball at POI (I really had to fight for this - as they were going to give ball to team B at division line) - in this case the endline, lane line extended as A2 was holding ball sitting in paint when whistle sounded. Now Coach team B wants his TO back - because he thought his team should be getting ball. Was told that once the TO had been granted - there is nothing in place for him to get it back even if he had not yet already used it.

...

Who made the hilighted decisions? Or are you including these things in the list of things that went wrong?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Hartsy

Just curious as to what you think the experience level of the crew has to do with the score? I don't recall ever hearing anything like this.

Actually, that is my point. I don't think an experienced crew would necessarily end up with the same outcome. This crew may have missed a lot of calls that would give one team a comfortable lead or still had a close game. The crew for this game and the fact that the first meeting of these two teams was close do not mean anything.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by rwest

Do you think going over 3 person mechanics in a 15 minute pre-game is going to help the crew? I don't. You just confuse them more. I think its too late to learn 3 man when you are about to step out on the floor. That's something that needs to be handled at camps, scrimmages and then work the newbies into some low intense matchups before setting them lose on a more challenging varsity schedule. Definitely not 15 minutes before a JUCO game!

In 2 person games, the L going strong side is a mechanic. Therefore they would have initiated a rotation for a 3 person crew?

Here's is my discussion of rotation in this scenario:
Rotations for 3 man are similar to 2 man. When L goes opposite, the T needs to step down, the C needs to step up. If you are the T and you see another T, look to see where the L is and adjust accordingly.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by rwest

Do you think going over 3 person mechanics in a 15 minute pre-game is going to help the crew? I don't. You just confuse them more. I think its too late to learn 3 man when you are about to step out on the floor. That's something that needs to be handled at camps, scrimmages and then work the newbies into some low intense matchups before setting them lose on a more challenging varsity schedule. Definitely not 15 minutes before a JUCO game!

Can you show me a quote where I said to teach them 3-man mechanics in 15 minutes? IMO, part of a good pregame is getting comfortable with your partners. During this discussion we can find out things that will help during the game.

I don't recall (virtually) meeting you. Hello, my name is Tom and I'm not your huckleberry.

Seriously, I'm very much aware that 3-man cannot be taught in 15 minutes, but I think something can always be gained from a good pregame. The more the OP knew about his crew the better they could have done. Maybe not in a structured way they were supposed to, but with a higher call accuracy.