JUCO misery

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Hey, I'm just across the cheddar curtain, have the shirt, and I'll provide cold beverages...........give me a jingle!

After the pregame bombshell - I wish I could have called. I knew I was in deep doo when I wanted to talk about rotations and got the blond deer in the headlights look, and then the one guys says - "we just switch normally" and it was too late to back out.

It really bothers me that they even took the game without ever doing 3 person. It never dawned on me that someone would actually work at that level without ANY 3 person experience, camps etc. It's one I know I have to let go - but still bothers me because of all the things I know should have been better - and it was such an evenly matched game.

[tomegun]

Do you honestly feel like the game would have been that close with an experienced crew? It may not have been.

Why didn't you talk fast and insist on going through a good pregame? I think this is where your leadership comes in and lifts the crew. If they asked you back they realize you are good enough to do the game and they want to work with you. I see it as an opportunity to see 1) college-level plays and 2) help another official get better.

You mentioned this situation happening in the 4th quarter. ?????

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Do you honestly feel like the game would have been that close with an experienced crew? It may not have been.

Why didn't you talk fast and insist on going through a good pregame? I think this is where your leadership comes in and lifts the crew. If they asked you back they realize you are good enough to do the game and they want to work with you. I see it as an opportunity to see 1) college-level plays and 2) help another official get better.

You mentioned this situation happening in the 4th quarter. ?????

They were not even going to have a pregame. I insisted on it. They game would more than likely have been close even with my normal crew. When they played the first time the game went into OT with the opposite team winning on last second 3pt shot. Two very evenly matched teams at all positions. I would not want to work another game at this level with these officials until they have had an opportunity to attend a camp/clinic or at the very least have some experience at lower levels with 3 person. I would be happy to do lower level games as long as we were able to have a pregame and they would listen/learn some of the terminolgy and positioning and well as primary and secondary area coverages with 3 person. They went in thinking nothing was different - and didn't want to even discuss these things pregame. That is why I was so frustrated. I don't think they are bad guys but I believe they put themselves in a no win situation and I kind of got stuck at the last second. I have not seen them before and they may very well be great 2 person officials at the JUCO level or any other level. The calls they made were not "bad" calls just out of their area, or areas of no coverage, no rotations - even if I was lead - if I rotated - I was the only one _ even after explaining when I insisted on a pregame. We will fairly often invite someone new to go along and watch us, then include them in frosh/jv games with two of us to get them started. We usually split the 2 person fee 3 ways when we do this and call ahead and get approval from the schools first. Just not at that level the first time w/o doing homework first.

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Do you honestly feel like the game would have been that close with an experienced crew? It may not have been.

Just curious as to what you think the experience level of the crew has to do with the score? I don't recall ever hearing anything like this.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

...

Early in game Team A HC gets T after being out of box and getting a little personal with partner over a call. No more problems after the T. Late in 4th qtr team B requests and is granted TO. After the warning horn #3 checks in at table and is not waved onto court. Players return to court. Lead counts players and administers ball for inbound pass.

Team A has ball deflected and there is a scramble. A2 gets ball sitting in paint. At this point Coach Team B runs onto court by trail trying to get his attention and yelling that A had 6 players on court. Trail hits whistle! HC team B is demanding that Team A's coach be given a Class A -T and be DQ'd. However, the intitial whistle was from trail for him being on court screaming without being beckoned. Wow - now he is just a little upset.

Crew gets together and confer. Yes, upon counting, team A did suddenly have 6 on the court. Sometime after partner counted and gave ball to A1 for throw-in and the scramble for deflected pass, #3 entered the court on his own. Table and team A HC confirm. So ........ HC team A was given a class B - T for #3 entering court w/o being beckoned causing 6 players from team A to be on court. Team A #3 given class B - T for entering court without being beckoned making 6 players for team A. HC - team B given a Class B - T for entering court w/o permission. Free throws follow.

Coach team B then requests and is granted TO. Following TO - team A is given ball at POI (I really had to fight for this - as they were going to give ball to team B at division line) - in this case the endline, lane line extended as A2 was holding ball sitting in paint when whistle sounded. Now Coach team B wants his TO back - because he thought his team should be getting ball. Was told that once the TO had been granted - there is nothing in place for him to get it back even if he had not yet already used it.

...

Who made the hilighted decisions? Or are you including these things in the list of things that went wrong?

[chartrusepengui]

Basically - I was watching the scramble from C. I saw A2 sitting on lane line my side when he picked up ball and covered it like FB halfback and was turning his head - IMO - to find an official and yell for TO. Before that could happen the whistle stopped play. R went to T to ask what the whistle was for.

I was watching players - and when they called me to confer everything had been decided - even a division line throw in for B. When I reminded him that in college most T's go to POI except for certain specific situations he got miffed for me saying anything about it. Then R was "thinking about going with a travel on A2" - as he was sitting on ground when whistle went off and said he thought he must have rolled to get that way- so still B ball but different spot. I asked him what he SAW. He finally admitted to not actually seeing that part of the play - and asked me what I actually saw. I told him A2's play was legal and he had possession when whistle stopped play. So POI was A - enline throw in at lane line extended.

That was the extent of what he wanted my input to be. It was like that from the pregame. I did my best and tried to help when possible but they were not really open to much of anything I said.

I'll be honest - at that point I was ready to be the he!! out of there.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

Basically - I was watching the scramble from C. I saw A2 sitting on lane line my side when he picked up ball and covered it like FB halfback and was turning his head - IMO - to find an official and yell for TO. Before that could happen the whistle stopped play. R went to T to ask what the whistle was for.

I was watching players - and when they called me to confer everything had been decided - even a division line throw in for B. When I reminded him that in college most T's go to POI except for certain specific situations he got miffed for me saying anything about it. Then R was "thinking about going with a travel on A2" - as he was sitting on ground when whistle went off and said he thought he must have rolled to get that way- so still B ball but different spot. I asked him what he SAW. He finally admitted to not actually seeing that part of the play - and asked me what I actually saw. I told him A2's play was legal and he had possession when whistle stopped play. So POI was A - enline throw in at lane line extended.

That was the extent of what he wanted my input to be. It was like that from the pregame. I did my best and tried to help when possible but they were not really open to much of anything I said.

I'll be honest - at that point I was ready to be the he!! out of there.

Coach A should not have received a Class B technical for a substitute (#3) illegally entering the court. It falls under Article 1 of Class B technicals which only get assessed to the perpetrator.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Hartsy

Just curious as to what you think the experience level of the crew has to do with the score? I don't recall ever hearing anything like this.

Actually, that is my point. I don't think an experienced crew would necessarily end up with the same outcome. This crew may have missed a lot of calls that would give one team a comfortable lead or still had a close game. The crew for this game and the fact that the first meeting of these two teams was close do not mean anything.

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Actually, that is my point. I don't think an experienced crew would necessarily end up with the same outcome. This crew may have missed a lot of calls that would give one team a comfortable lead or still had a close game. The crew for this game and the fact that the first meeting of these two teams was close do not mean anything.

If you mean that the experience level of the crew has no relation to whether the game is close or not, I agree. It semed to me you were implying that an inexperienced crew was more likely to end up with a close game, that missed calls are usually an "equalizer" of some sort. With that I would disagree.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Why didn't you talk fast and insist on going through a good pregame? I think this is where your leadership comes in and lifts the crew. If they asked you back they realize you are good enough to do the game and they want to work with you. I see it as an opportunity to see 1) college-level plays and 2) help another official get better.

Do you think going over 3 person mechanics in a 15 minute pre-game is going to help the crew? I don't. You just confuse them more. I think its too late to learn 3 man when you are about to step out on the floor. That's something that needs to be handled at camps, scrimmages and then work the newbies into some low intense matchups before setting them lose on a more challenging varsity schedule. Definitely not 15 minutes before a JUCO game!

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by rwest

Do you think going over 3 person mechanics in a 15 minute pre-game is going to help the crew? I don't. You just confuse them more. I think its too late to learn 3 man when you are about to step out on the floor. That's something that needs to be handled at camps, scrimmages and then work the newbies into some low intense matchups before setting them lose on a more challenging varsity schedule. Definitely not 15 minutes before a JUCO game!

In 2 person games, the L going strong side is a mechanic. Therefore they would have initiated a rotation for a 3 person crew?

Here's is my discussion of rotation in this scenario:
Rotations for 3 man are similar to 2 man. When L goes opposite, the T needs to step down, the C needs to step up. If you are the T and you see another T, look to see where the L is and adjust accordingly.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by rwest

Do you think going over 3 person mechanics in a 15 minute pre-game is going to help the crew? I don't. You just confuse them more. I think its too late to learn 3 man when you are about to step out on the floor. That's something that needs to be handled at camps, scrimmages and then work the newbies into some low intense matchups before setting them lose on a more challenging varsity schedule. Definitely not 15 minutes before a JUCO game!

Can you show me a quote where I said to teach them 3-man mechanics in 15 minutes? IMO, part of a good pregame is getting comfortable with your partners. During this discussion we can find out things that will help during the game.

I don't recall (virtually) meeting you. Hello, my name is Tom and I'm not your huckleberry.

Seriously, I'm very much aware that 3-man cannot be taught in 15 minutes, but I think something can always be gained from a good pregame. The more the OP knew about his crew the better they could have done. Maybe not in a structured way they were supposed to, but with a higher call accuracy.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Can you show me a quote where I said to teach them 3-man mechanics in 15 minutes? IMO, part of a good pregame is getting comfortable with your partners. During this discussion we can find out things that will help during the game.

I don't recall (virtually) meeting you. Hello, my name is Tom and I'm not your huckleberry.

Seriously, I'm very much aware that 3-man cannot be taught in 15 minutes, but I think something can always be gained from a good pregame. The more the OP knew about his crew the better they could have done. Maybe not in a structured way they were supposed to, but with a higher call accuracy.

Your post seemed to me to indicate that a pregame would have helped with 3 man mechanics. I apologize for reading too much into it. However, there is a big difference between a 2 man pre-game and a 3 man pre-game. Must of what you cover in a one does not apply to the other, namely because you are talking about specifics involving the mechanics you will be using. Sure there are things that transfer over. However, I do agree with you that a good pre-game is a must.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by rwest

Your post seemed to me to indicate that a pregame would have helped with 3 man mechanics. I apologize for reading too much into it. However, there is a big difference between a 2 man pre-game and a 3 man pre-game. Must of what you cover in a one does not apply to the other, namely because you are talking about specifics involving the mechanics you will be using. Sure there are things that transfer over. However, I do agree with you that a good pre-game is a must.

For one, don't tell me to call down; I thought I followed up some of what I said by "seriously" which meant I wasn't serious in the first place. My pregame and your pregame are obviously different. I'm not giving a 3-man refresher clinic before every game so there is no need to assume that is what I was talking about. The situation is an obstacle. I feel like they could have done something, via a pregame, that would have helped the situation.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by tomegun

For one, don't tell me to call down; I thought I followed up some of what I said by "seriously" which meant I wasn't serious in the first place. My pregame and your pregame are obviously different. I'm not giving a 3-man refresher clinic before every game so there is no need to assume that is what I was talking about. The situation is an obstacle. I feel like they could have done something, via a pregame, that would have helped the situation.

My bad! Sorry!