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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 11:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berkut View Post
But that is just it - I *did* know that white touched it before it went OOB - just don't know if it was touched *again* - judging from the reactions after I called the ball off white, it was...

I was not guessing, just making a decision based on (probably) incomplete information.



Even in the backcourt?

We tend to want to the lead to help out on this call, but the sidelines in backcourt are the trails. now I shall have to go and check the mechanics manual to see if maybe we are not doing that correctly.

I was a little dissapointed my partner could not help - I try to stress how important it is for the lead to be cognizant of this spot on the floor, but it was looking like a fast break transition, so I cannot really fault him for being focused on getting down to the baseline.
At least around here, yes, even in the backcourt the lead has that line. To make it easier, you have whichever side you are on for the entire length of the court, then the endline is also the lead's. OOB situations are just one of many compromises that you have to make in the 2 man system. Don't beat yourself up about it, you can't see through the players.

Like you said, a fast break often has the lead concentrating on beating the play. In fact, even with a 3 man crew, this type of play still needs the lead's help. If the new trail only sees the backs of the players, it's difficult to rule who caused the ball to go out of bounds. I always try to pre-game this with my partners.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 11:36am
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Originally Posted by bbcof83 View Post
OK, yes, sorry for my tone. If he hadn't seen anything and hadn't signaled yet, and his partner had no help, and he couldn't tell by the body language of the players... then go to the arrow.
No sweat. I think we all agree that, once the call was made, just inbound it and move on. If it's the only call you missed, you still had a heck of a game.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 11:36am
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Originally Posted by Berkut View Post
Doh!

That would have been ugly - I don't even think he was looking back.
That's a problem - your partner's. He needs to look over his shoulder when running down the court.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 11:37am
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This is one of the biggest reasons the new lead shouldn't just turn and run in transition; especially in 2-whistle.

It's also why I have a hard time letting go of that sideline when going from 2 to 3 whistle.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 11:58am
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Thanks for all the pointers guys. It's these little tweaks that really make the difference between a good official and an excellent one. I think I am good, but I want to be excellent.

Appreciate the feedback.

Take-away: In the future, maybe don't even signal at all until I confer, that was I don't have to reverse anything, should I decide my initial view was

A) Wrong, give the ball to white, or
B) Still not sure, go to the arrow.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 01:01pm
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I’ve run into this as well, and like other have said when transitioning to the new lead don’t forsake all just to beat the fast break. In this situation where the ball is on your side line and you are lead, stay with the play a bit along the side line (10 feet in front of or so, while trying to maintain some sort of angle).

Not only will it help you with OOB, but fouling action as well. Of course, if the dribbler breaks free, then you have to really hustle to beat the break, or button hook if you can’t make it.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 02:20pm
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Next time, as you said, blow your whistle only if your partner fails to, since it was his line, and then conference with him. If he has no clue, you really need to go with the AP unless you're absolutely certain who touched it last.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 03:06pm
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I want to hit on what I see as the major issue here: Am I missing a major mechanics point? If ball goes oob table side in BC during fast break w/ me on the opposite side of the floor, how on earth is that my line? Is it really? I'm not being smart aleck, I seriously have never read that, heard that, or been taught that. If I am missing something please let me know!

It also brings up my biggest reason for never, ever doing two man again. I am in good enough shape to beat the kids down the floor in two man, but I ABSOLUTELY HATE having to run on the fast break and look back over my shoulder instead of looking where I am running. All our schools here V is 3 man. Except one cheapo school. I go there for a two man game and have this same fast break situation. I am table side ball coming up my line fast and under pressure keeping me right on the sideline instead of on the court. Next thing I know, I am looking at the ceiling. My knee collided with the forehead of a very stout two year old girl and I landed in an awkward pile on the floor. Game management in this place did nothing to keep fans from walking down that sideline in front of the benches. Somehow, we both wound up okay. It could have been a career ender for me. No more two man. O, and the ball went oob on my line. I think it went off of home, but not sure since I am now looking at the ceiling. I give it to V. Home coach goes nuts. I tell him keep your fans out of the way or don't talk to me about who's ball it is.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 12, 2010, 03:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggravy View Post
I want to hit on what I see as the major issue here: Am I missing a major mechanics point? If ball goes oob table side in BC during fast break w/ me on the opposite side of the floor, how on earth is that my line? Is it really? I'm not being smart aleck, I seriously have never read that, heard that, or been taught that. If I am missing something please let me know!
This is something Referee proposed (proposes?) as an alternate mechanic -- give the official the line based on whose primary it is. The argument is that, especially in the front court above the FT line extended, the lead is not even looking there (cause it's not their primary). Interesting, but I've pretty much dismissed that thinking -- how can a trail call a ball that slowly approaches the sideline and may or may not have touched OOB on the other side of the court?
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 13, 2010, 10:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berkut View Post
Had a great BJV game last night between two of the better programs in the area.

Anyway, had one situation that I would love to hear some feedback on.

2nd half, home team has the ball in the frontcourt, and it is stolen. I am lead, transitioning to trail, and am across the court from the table.

Ball is moving up the table side of the court, and I am hustling over to get there when it is knocked loose towards the table, but still in the back court. I clearly see the ball go off White's hands, then go behind a couple of players who are going after it (by behind, I mean from my perspective, ie the players screened my view).

Ball goes OOB near the scorers bench, home side of the court (backcourt), ie on my line. (Ball goes OOB, tableside sideline, in the backcourt)

Blow my whistle, stick my hand up, but while I saw the ball last touched by white, I could NOT tell if anyone touched it after that. I look at my partner, who was on that side (was tableside), but hustling up court to try to beat the fast break down, and hope he has something...but he isn't looking at me at all, so I am guessing he does not.

I point down court and say "Black ball!", and the place goes nuts. The coach for white, the players for white, the fans, everyone is screaming bloody murder, while black is cheering and high-fiving each other.



...
The Lead should have been looking back over his shoulder. Even if he didn't know who caused the ball to go OOB, he should have had a whistle then asked you for help. Personally I would not expect him to know who it went out on but I would expect him to have a whistle to stop play.

For ease of reading I suggest using different terms, like Team B/Team A, A1/B2, W2,B2 (for color) instead of home team/visiting team. Also the changes noted above in your quoted text. Just a suggestion.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 13, 2010, 11:34am
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What would be the correct signal when going with the arrow? Would you just signal the direction in which the arrow is pointing or would you give an explanation?

The Jump-Ball signal would (to me) look ridiculous and incorrect in this scenerio

Thanks
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 13, 2010, 11:37am
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Originally Posted by CDurham View Post
What would be the correct signal when going with the arrow? Would you just signal the direction in which the arrow is pointing or would you give an explanation?

The Jump-Ball signal would (to me) look ridiculous and incorrect in this scenerio

Thanks
After confirming your partner(s) can't help, a quick two-thumbs up toward the table to let them and the coaches know you're going w/ A/P is appropriate. No need, IMO, to make a show out of it.

Bottom line, though, is that 99% of the time on an OOB call I'm going to make a call with the information I have available.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 13, 2010, 11:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDurham View Post
What would be the correct signal when going with the arrow? Would you just signal the direction in which the arrow is pointing or would you give an explanation?

The Jump-Ball signal would (to me) look ridiculous and incorrect in this scenerio

Thanks
I think you're going to have to get used to looking (to you) ridiculous and incorrect.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 13, 2010, 11:42am
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I was just thinking that since you wouldnt have a jump ball there was no need to give the signal.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 13, 2010, 11:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDurham View Post
I was just thinking that since you wouldnt have a jump ball there was no need to give the signal.
How else is the table and anyone else in the gym going to know you're going with an alternating possession throw-in?
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