Words can't describe.... this video.

[Kelvin green]

I am jumping in late

I agree that the first T was warranted. 100 percent..

Dont know what was said to get the second but here is what I dont like.

The kid gets "hit" and laying on the ground. There is a fould call but the official from the baseline walks past bench, calls foul, and calls T, and walks past player on floor...

Seems prudence would have somone blowing the whistle and attending to kid or beckon the coach on floor and deal with the injured player before whacking him.... My two cents

[Ignats75]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Fair enough. Gotta say, I've never had such a hothead in 20+ years.

I have had coaches come on the court like in the first video and draw a technical. It's his reaction to the technical that I've not seen personally. My reaction would be to give him a second one in the same sequence -- would be nice if one of the other guys would've stepped in and done it, but considering the video, it wasn't going to happen.

I did a BJV game a couple of years ago and stayed to watch the V game at one of the highest profile all boys HS in Cleveland. They were playing an undefeated and #2 team in the state. Referee in the V game ignited a firestorm at the game by overreacting to an innocent accident. After a made basket by HT, the ball came thru the net and bounced off the head of the V C and rolled away. Referee issued a delay of game warning and when the HC for the visitors questioned why, hr whcked the HC

A little background. When my partner and I came out at 15 minutes to 6 for the JV game warmups, the gym was packed. They were hanging from the rafters. The visitors brought SIX chartered busloads of drunk adults the 2 hours by bus it took to come to the game! So the crowd was raucous and the HT fans were greatly outnumbered this night.

In the second half, there was an apparently controversial call right by the half court line table side. I was leaning against the wall along the endline next to one of two police officers in the gym. The L was about three feet to my right and had roughly the same line of sight as I had. I realized as this controversial call was made that the L was watching the HC for the visitors. Sure enough, the HC stands up to protest the call and the L sprints down the sideline to issue the second T. The reaction in the video is nothing like the reaction from this guy. It took three assistand coaches to get him out of the gym as he just completely lost it. They almost carried him to the locker room. The game really degenerated from there and the game ended with the home team dribbing out the clock so that the officials could leave the court and be locked in the locker room with an armed guard and not allowed to leave until all the buses were loaded and gone. The AD insisted that I join them as he ddn't want to risk anything. It was the most unbelievable night of my career.

[constable]

first one should have been a flagrant- that would have negated the need for the second T.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

I did a BJV game a couple of years ago and stayed to watch the V game at one of the highest profile all boys HS in Cleveland. They were playing an undefeated and #2 team in the state. Referee in the V game ignited a firestorm at the game by overreacting to an innocent accident. After a made basket by HT, the ball came thru the net and bounced off the head of the V C and rolled away. Referee issued a delay of game warning and when the HC for the visitors questioned why, hr whcked the HC

A little background. When my partner and I came out at 15 minutes to 6 for the JV game warmups, the gym was packed. They were hanging from the rafters. The visitors brought SIX chartered busloads of drunk adults the 2 hours by bus it took to come to the game! So the crowd was raucous and the HT fans were greatly outnumbered this night.

In the second half, there was an apparently controversial call right by the half court line table side. I was leaning against the wall along the endline next to one of two police officers in the gym. The L was about three feet to my right and had roughly the same line of sight as I had. I realized as this controversial call was made that the L was watching the HC for the visitors. Sure enough, the HC stands up to protest the call and the L sprints down the sideline to issue the second T. The reaction in the video is nothing like the reaction from this guy. It took three assistand coaches to get him out of the gym as he just completely lost it. They almost carried him to the locker room. The game really degenerated from there and the game ended with the home team dribbing out the clock so that the officials could leave the court and be locked in the locker room with an armed guard and not allowed to leave until all the buses were loaded and gone. The AD insisted that I join them as he ddn't want to risk anything. It was the most unbelievable night of my career.

This story certainly doesn't paint that official in a positive light.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Giving a signal does clarify what he saw and why he did not make the call. It might not be authorized, but we used to give a single for kicking the ball and that was at one time not authorized, but still illegal to kick the ball.

This remark pertains to the "alligator chop" to signal that the official saw a block rather than a foul.

I know that this topic has been discussed, but I wanted to respond to this thought. NFHS will not authorize the chop, because in the season it did so the number of "blops" (block/chop?) or foul/no-foul double calls would increase 100-fold.

It's one thing if one official passes on a foul and another calls it. It's quite another to have conflicting signals on a play. The latter looks bad, IMO.

Even apart from the question of whether we need a signal for a no-call, for this reason using the "chop" is bad mechanics.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbyron

This remark pertains to the "alligator chop" to signal that the official saw a block rather than a foul.

I know that this topic has been discussed, but I wanted to respond to this thought. NFHS will not authorize the chop, because in the season it did so the number of "blops" (block/chop?) or foul/no-foul double calls would increase 100-fold.

It's one thing if one official passes on a foul and another calls it. It's quite another to have conflicting signals on a play. The latter looks bad, IMO.

Even apart from the question of whether we need a signal for a no-call, for this reason using the "chop" is bad mechanics.

Well I am not talking about this from a NF perspective. Not all states use NF mechanics like my state does not (to the letter that is). I am simply stating that the signal alone is not a bad signal. When it is used can be. I have no problem if someone is using this as clarification. I have used it in other situations when no possibility of another call is at issue. In other words, I have used it when the play in question is completely over. I use the tip signal on out of bounds calls often to clarify what I saw. I really do not care if the NF or anyone else likes it; I am communicating something to everyone without having to yell across the court.

Peace

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well I am not talking about this from a NF perspective. Not all states use NF mechanics like my state does not (to the letter that is). I am simply stating that the signal alone is not a bad signal. When it is used can be. I have no problem if someone is using this as clarification. I have used it in other situations when no possibility of another call is at issue. In other words, I have used it when the play in question is completely over. I use the tip signal on out of bounds calls often to clarify what I saw. I really do not care if the NF or anyone else likes it; I am communicating something to everyone without having to yell across the court.

Peace

1. It is a bad signal, for the reason I gave (your personal use of it notwithstanding).

2. Bringing in the "tipped ball" signal to this discussion is a famous Rutledge red herring: there's no comparable reason to discontinue using that signal.

3. The issue is not whether the signal communicates something, but whether it's the best way to communicate that content. Specifically, is it better than the mere absence of a whistle? Given its drawbacks, the answer is no, IMO.

4. You are, of course, free to ignore this reasoning and to keep doing it your way. That's not a reason supporting your view, though.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbyron

1. It is a bad signal, for the reason I gave (your personal use of it notwithstanding).

2. Bringing in the "tipped ball" signal to this discussion is a famous Rutledge red herring: there's no comparable reason to discontinue using that signal.

3. The issue is not whether the signal communicates something, but whether it's the best way to communicate that content. Specifically, is it better than the mere absence of a whistle? Given its drawbacks, the answer is no, IMO.

4. You are, of course, free to ignore this reasoning and to keep doing it your way. That's not a reason supporting your view, though.

To say something is a "bad mechanic" is very subjective in the first place. And to use the "approval" of one organization is even worse IMO. I remember hearing that same logic about the "not closely guarded" signal as well because it was not approved. Then for some reason the NF adopted it like they do a lot of other mechanics other levels use. And honestly I would not be surprised in a year or two a "tip signal" is approved considering the NCAA allows both Men's and Women's sides to use that signal. And I see officials use it all the time.

Now I did not say anything about whether it was a good mechanic or not. That was not the point. The point was that in this situation right or wrong the use of not use of a signal was not going to make that much difference as to whether the coach went off in my opinion. Coaches go off no matter what we do or do not do. And you can be sarcastic all you like, but just read this site, there are all kinds of coaches going off and a signal was not the cause.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You really do just to like to rip on people for the fun of it don't you?

There was no ripping involved. The point that I was making that the the coach on the FIRST technical was down in the corner at his end of the gym and the play occurred completely across the gym at the other end. There was nowayinhell that the coach had a good look at that play IN MY OPINION. And it was the coach that put on the show and got the "T", not the bench.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

To say something is a "bad mechanic" is very subjective in the first place. And to use the "approval" of one organization is even worse IMO. I remember hearing that same logic about the "not closely guarded" signal as well because it was not approved. Then for some reason the NF adopted it like they do a lot of other mechanics other levels use. And honestly I would not be surprised in a year or two a "tip signal" is approved considering the NCAA allows both Men's and Women's sides to use that signal. And I see officials use it all the time.

Now I did not say anything about whether it was a good mechanic or not. That was not the point. The point was that in this situation right or wrong the use of not use of a signal was not going to make that much difference as to whether the coach went off in my opinion. Coaches go off no matter what we do or do not do. And you can be sarcastic all you like, but just read this site, there are all kinds of coaches going off and a signal was not the cause.

Peace

I was not sarcastic or ironic in any way. Bringing in yet another Rutledge red herring (not closely guarded) does not improve your case: the reason the "blocked shot" mechanic is bad does not apply to that signal either.

Who said anything about coaches going off? It's a bad signal because it opens the door to double calls (foul/no-foul situations). I invite you either to address that point or simply to assert that you intend to use a bad mechanic as you see fit.

[bbcof83]

This is not the point of this video being posted, I know. The coach was 100% deserved in his two Ts. Wanted to bring something else up that I don't think anyone has mentioned.

I'm not passing judgment and I know some people aren't going to like this but I believe a foul may have been missed. Looking at the 2nd video, when the kid pulls up for 3 on the fast break, notice how the ball continues upward. I'm no scientist but I have to believe basic physics tells us if the defender's hand is slapping down and the shooter is bringing the ball up, if the ball is contacted, that ball should be forced down or at least slow it's ascent. It goes about 12 feet in the air. Also, looks as if the shooter's left hand goes down while the ball and right arm continue up.

I have to believe there was some contact here and if there's any contact from a defender from behind we have a foul.

Thoughts?

[doubleringer]

2 good T's. On the first, I agree that whomever the official was that was nearest the coach should have taken care of business himself. As far as the second, the guy was on the radar for his actions early on, he must have said too much. The new acting head coach can come out and attend to his player. The second would have been a more solid T if the same official didn't have to clean up after his partner that didn't assess the T when he should have.

As far as the foul tip mechanic discussion. I'm not a fan. I had a partner use it on a play in double coverage areas. He's signalling "foul tip" or a clean block, I'm coming in as C with a foul from the back side. We were in the soup because of his extra communication. If there isn't a whistle, that means there isn't a foul. That should be communication enough. In my opinion the foul tip mechanic can potentially get you in more trouble than it will get you out of.

[Upward ref]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

I agree. I have never come close to seeing a reaction like this as a player, as a coach, as an official, or as an administrator.

In good ol' Virginia ,I think they call it assault and battery. Especially if it's on your kid(s) !

[j51969]

Originally Posted by Mr. Ref

Finally he is dumped later in the game.

did the video get dumped?

[Ignats75]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This story certainly doesn't paint that official in a positive light.

No it doesn't. And he's one of my assignors.