Words can't describe.... this video.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Matt S.

Let me preface this by saying I don't in any way condone what the coach did, and both T's appear warranted.

It 'appears' to me that the official who passed on the steal call, and didn't issue the T, looks to be a lot younger than the official who T'd the coach-hence the veteran taking care of business.

Secondly, I want you to look at the opposite side official's positioning-he's coming up court as trial, but is running past the play-why on earth would he try and work 'inside out' as a hustling trail in transition??? Not saying he got the call right or wrong, but he certainly doesn't appear to have the best angle on the play...

Thoughts?

I thought the trail over-ran the play, considering where the ball ended up. On the strip/steal, if you freeze it, the T is in the worst possible spot to officiate the steal and see if there's a whole lotta arm along with the ball.

Yet, these types of plays happen every game, especially with a lot of running and transition play. The coach's reaction is completely inappropriate and if I was the official getting that, he would've been whacked a lot quicker.

On the second play, I think the official giving the gator chop is just throwing fuel on the fire. Why signal anything? The lack of a whistle tells me everything I need to know.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

JR,
Did not say the "head coach", I said the bench -- which was much closer to the play than 54 feet -- more like 25 feet. Appeared to have a better angle than the official on this play.

Probably a little.

First of all none of us have a great angle. The officials are much closer to the play and just because there is contact does not mean anything. I love it when coaches ask the dumbest question of all, "There wasn't contact on that?" What the heck does that have to do with anything? All contact is not a foul. It looked like a steal to me and there might have been some contact afterward, but I cannot say that for sure looking at this (particular) tape.

I agree with JR, you are thinking like a coach. There is no way the bench had a better look than two officials on this play. No way whatsoever.

Peace

[fullor30]

I'm witholding a comment until Chseagle tells his position on this one and how the table would come into play.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

On the second play, I think the official giving the gator chop is just throwing fuel on the fire. Why signal anything? The lack of a whistle tells me everything I need to know.

I disagree with you on this. If you have no whistle it does not matter. Giving a signal does clarify what he saw and why he did not make the call. It might not be authorized, but we used to give a single for kicking the ball and that was at one time not authorized, but still illegal to kick the ball. I get questions all the time when I do not call a foul (like the one I just posted) and I do not give a signal it does not take away the opportunity to for them to say something. Actually I have started saying to coaches, "If you did not hear a whistle, we must not have thought it was a foul."

Peace

[Anchor]

Nobody has mentioned the most obvious yet--the defender in the second video is clearly jumping towards the shooter. In so doing, having given up any semblance of a legal guarding position any contact (of which there is plenty) can be considered a foul. Did he gain an advantage? The official signaling that he capped the ball makes me think he gained a fairly significant advantage.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I disagree with you on this. If you have no whistle it does not matter. Giving a signal does clarify what he saw and why he did not make the call. It might not be authorized, but we used to give a single for kicking the ball and that was at one time not authorized, but still illegal to kick the ball. I get questions all the time when I do not call a foul (like the one I just posted) and I do not give a signal it does not take away the opportunity to for them to say something. Actually I have started saying to coaches, "If you did not hear a whistle, we must not have thought it was a foul."

Peace

All I said was that in this particular case it was like adding fuel to the fire. Feel free to disagree.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all none of us have a great angle. The officials are much closer to the play and just because there is contact does not mean anything. I love it when coaches ask the dumbest question of all, "There wasn't contact on that?" What the heck does that have to do with anything? All contact is not a foul. It looked like a steal to me and there might have been some contact afterward, but I cannot say that for sure looking at this (particular) tape.

I agree with JR, you are thinking like a coach. There is no way the bench had a better look than two officials on this play. No way whatsoever.

Peace

First of all, I look at a play -- not as an official, coach, player, but as a person. Secondly, the Center appears to have a terrible angle. Not only that, he did not have what it took to issue the first technical when a coach can running out after him. Expecting him to make a big call in the last 15 seconds of a three point game is something I would not expect -- whether it should be made or not.

As I stated initially, the actions of this coach were completely out of line -- including the actions during the time out on the first video. At the same time, I do not view officials' calls as being infallible. The signal the official was giving appears to be one indicating that the player could not release the ball. While the video is not clear, it appeared as though the player got much more than ball on this play.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

All I said was that in this particular case it was like adding fuel to the fire. Feel free to disagree.

I am simply saying that I do not think it matters. In this case or any case the coach seemed to be to be geared up and has an anger problem. I have never seen a coach push his own players out of the way like they were adults to get at an official for anything. He would have been ejected by me long before the second T anyway.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am simply saying that I do not think it matters. In this case or any case the coach seemed to be to be geared up and has an anger problem. I have never seen a coach push his own players out of the way like they were adults to get at an official for anything. He would have been ejected by me long before the second T anyway.

Peace

Fair enough. Gotta say, I've never had such a hothead in 20+ years.

I have had coaches come on the court like in the first video and draw a technical. It's his reaction to the technical that I've not seen personally. My reaction would be to give him a second one in the same sequence -- would be nice if one of the other guys would've stepped in and done it, but considering the video, it wasn't going to happen.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Let's see...

The head coach that was complaining was sitting at the end of his bench which was closest to the other team's basket, somewhere around the second lane space. The foul that he wanted called occurred all the way across the court appriximately at around the top of the 3-point arc.

Let's do the math.....

It's 50 feet across the court plus another few feet from the bench.

From where the coach was sitting, it would be about 54 feet down the court at the other end.

Sooooo....54 feet down and 50 feet across...square the hypotenuse...round off....deduct 2 ....add 6 inches for the Ron Jeremy(tm) effect.....and it comes out to occurring one helluva long way away from the coach.

Yup, the FAR bench had a great look at the steal.

You really do think like a coach, don't you?

Nice math, but completely wrong context.

However, the play he was talking about was from the second video----at the top of the key (just 25 from the sideline) and pretty much straight in front of the coach....at most 30 feet from the coach....essentially the same look as a C would have if the C were tableside. The lead was running full speed just trying to beat the play down the court...not exactly an ideal situation to view a play....and the C was also sprinting up the court and was only getting into position well after the incident in question.

I actually don't question the call that (wasn't) made. The video didn't give me any reason to think they got it wrong. (It also didn't have enough clarity to confirm the call either).

You really do just to like to rip on people for the fun of it don't you?

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Fair enough. Gotta say, I've never had such a hothead in 20+ years.

I have had coaches come on the court like in the first video and draw a technical. It's his reaction to the technical that I've not seen personally. My reaction would be to give him a second one in the same sequence -- would be nice if one of the other guys would've stepped in and done it, but considering the video, it wasn't going to happen.

I agree. I have never come close to seeing a reaction like this as a player, as a coach, as an official, or as an administrator.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

First of all, I look at a play -- not as an official, coach, player, but as a person. Secondly, the Center appears to have a terrible angle. Not only that, he did not have what it took to issue the first technical when a coach can running out after him. Expecting him to make a big call in the last 15 seconds of a three point game is something I would not expect -- whether it should be made or not.

Well I only look at plays like these as an official. Sorry, I have been in these situations and I do not care what a person would think without looking at this through my experiences as an official.

And honestly none of us know what was said or what was not said. That might have been part of the reason he did not give a T and his partner (who was closer) did. That has nothing to do with the ruling on the play. Now without talking to that official, we have no idea why a foul was not called and we certainly do not know why a T was not given by that official. For all you know (and me too) he might not have heard the coach at all. Not all officials have the same triggers for given Ts and to say he did not have the ball or heart is not really realistic all the time.

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

As I stated initially, the actions of this coach were completely out of line -- including the actions during the time out on the first video. At the same time, I do not view officials' calls as being infallible. The signal the official was giving appears to be one indicating that the player could not release the ball. While the video is not clear, it appeared as though the player got much more than ball on this play.

I never said the officials could not have missed the call. But I did not see anything on tape that made me feel otherwise. For all I know it was a bad call, but the official for one thing was in a much better position to see everything than this grainy video shows that is for sure. And just because the coach went off does not mean the official did something wrong on a particular call. Again, I have been there where a defender did nothing wrong or illegal, but the player with the ball falls hard to the floor. “People” want fouls to be called on plays like this. Officials should want the play to be called right. You should not call fouls based on what looks bad, you should call fouls when someone does something illegal.

Peace

[bbcoach7]

Originally Posted by henrinaiara

same me too can describe this forum

Have you ever used a complete sentence in this forum? Your comments might make sense if you do.

[bbcoach7]

Originally Posted by fullor30

I'm witholding a comment until Chseagle tells his position on this one and how the table would come into play.

Probably what I should of done too, gosh darn it!

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by bbcoach7

Have you ever used a complete sentence in this forum? Your comments might make sense if you do.

It's a spam bot, bb. It'll be gone soon.. very soon.