Words can't describe.... this video.

[Matt S.]

Let me preface this by saying I don't in any way condone what the coach did, and both T's appear warranted.

It 'appears' to me that the official who passed on the steal call, and didn't issue the T, looks to be a lot younger than the official who T'd the coach-hence the veteran taking care of business.

Secondly, I want you to look at the opposite side official's positioning-he's coming up court as trial, but is running past the play-why on earth would he try and work 'inside out' as a hustling trail in transition??? Not saying he got the call right or wrong, but he certainly doesn't appear to have the best angle on the play...

Thoughts?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Matt S.

Let me preface this by saying I don't in any way condone what the coach did, and both T's appear warranted.

It 'appears' to me that the official who passed on the steal call, and didn't issue the T, looks to be a lot younger than the official who T'd the coach-hence the veteran taking care of business.

Secondly, I want you to look at the opposite side official's positioning-he's coming up court as trial, but is running past the play-why on earth would he try and work 'inside out' as a hustling trail in transition??? Not saying he got the call right or wrong, but he certainly doesn't appear to have the best angle on the play...

Thoughts?

I thought the trail over-ran the play, considering where the ball ended up. On the strip/steal, if you freeze it, the T is in the worst possible spot to officiate the steal and see if there's a whole lotta arm along with the ball.

Yet, these types of plays happen every game, especially with a lot of running and transition play. The coach's reaction is completely inappropriate and if I was the official getting that, he would've been whacked a lot quicker.

On the second play, I think the official giving the gator chop is just throwing fuel on the fire. Why signal anything? The lack of a whistle tells me everything I need to know.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

On the second play, I think the official giving the gator chop is just throwing fuel on the fire. Why signal anything? The lack of a whistle tells me everything I need to know.

I disagree with you on this. If you have no whistle it does not matter. Giving a signal does clarify what he saw and why he did not make the call. It might not be authorized, but we used to give a single for kicking the ball and that was at one time not authorized, but still illegal to kick the ball. I get questions all the time when I do not call a foul (like the one I just posted) and I do not give a signal it does not take away the opportunity to for them to say something. Actually I have started saying to coaches, "If you did not hear a whistle, we must not have thought it was a foul."

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I disagree with you on this. If you have no whistle it does not matter. Giving a signal does clarify what he saw and why he did not make the call. It might not be authorized, but we used to give a single for kicking the ball and that was at one time not authorized, but still illegal to kick the ball. I get questions all the time when I do not call a foul (like the one I just posted) and I do not give a signal it does not take away the opportunity to for them to say something. Actually I have started saying to coaches, "If you did not hear a whistle, we must not have thought it was a foul."

Peace

All I said was that in this particular case it was like adding fuel to the fire. Feel free to disagree.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

All I said was that in this particular case it was like adding fuel to the fire. Feel free to disagree.

I am simply saying that I do not think it matters. In this case or any case the coach seemed to be to be geared up and has an anger problem. I have never seen a coach push his own players out of the way like they were adults to get at an official for anything. He would have been ejected by me long before the second T anyway.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am simply saying that I do not think it matters. In this case or any case the coach seemed to be to be geared up and has an anger problem. I have never seen a coach push his own players out of the way like they were adults to get at an official for anything. He would have been ejected by me long before the second T anyway.

Peace

Fair enough. Gotta say, I've never had such a hothead in 20+ years.

I have had coaches come on the court like in the first video and draw a technical. It's his reaction to the technical that I've not seen personally. My reaction would be to give him a second one in the same sequence -- would be nice if one of the other guys would've stepped in and done it, but considering the video, it wasn't going to happen.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Fair enough. Gotta say, I've never had such a hothead in 20+ years.

I have had coaches come on the court like in the first video and draw a technical. It's his reaction to the technical that I've not seen personally. My reaction would be to give him a second one in the same sequence -- would be nice if one of the other guys would've stepped in and done it, but considering the video, it wasn't going to happen.

I agree. I have never come close to seeing a reaction like this as a player, as a coach, as an official, or as an administrator.

[Ignats75]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Fair enough. Gotta say, I've never had such a hothead in 20+ years.

I have had coaches come on the court like in the first video and draw a technical. It's his reaction to the technical that I've not seen personally. My reaction would be to give him a second one in the same sequence -- would be nice if one of the other guys would've stepped in and done it, but considering the video, it wasn't going to happen.

I did a BJV game a couple of years ago and stayed to watch the V game at one of the highest profile all boys HS in Cleveland. They were playing an undefeated and #2 team in the state. Referee in the V game ignited a firestorm at the game by overreacting to an innocent accident. After a made basket by HT, the ball came thru the net and bounced off the head of the V C and rolled away. Referee issued a delay of game warning and when the HC for the visitors questioned why, hr whcked the HC

A little background. When my partner and I came out at 15 minutes to 6 for the JV game warmups, the gym was packed. They were hanging from the rafters. The visitors brought SIX chartered busloads of drunk adults the 2 hours by bus it took to come to the game! So the crowd was raucous and the HT fans were greatly outnumbered this night.

In the second half, there was an apparently controversial call right by the half court line table side. I was leaning against the wall along the endline next to one of two police officers in the gym. The L was about three feet to my right and had roughly the same line of sight as I had. I realized as this controversial call was made that the L was watching the HC for the visitors. Sure enough, the HC stands up to protest the call and the L sprints down the sideline to issue the second T. The reaction in the video is nothing like the reaction from this guy. It took three assistand coaches to get him out of the gym as he just completely lost it. They almost carried him to the locker room. The game really degenerated from there and the game ended with the home team dribbing out the clock so that the officials could leave the court and be locked in the locker room with an armed guard and not allowed to leave until all the buses were loaded and gone. The AD insisted that I join them as he ddn't want to risk anything. It was the most unbelievable night of my career.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Giving a signal does clarify what he saw and why he did not make the call. It might not be authorized, but we used to give a single for kicking the ball and that was at one time not authorized, but still illegal to kick the ball.

This remark pertains to the "alligator chop" to signal that the official saw a block rather than a foul.

I know that this topic has been discussed, but I wanted to respond to this thought. NFHS will not authorize the chop, because in the season it did so the number of "blops" (block/chop?) or foul/no-foul double calls would increase 100-fold.

It's one thing if one official passes on a foul and another calls it. It's quite another to have conflicting signals on a play. The latter looks bad, IMO.

Even apart from the question of whether we need a signal for a no-call, for this reason using the "chop" is bad mechanics.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbyron

This remark pertains to the "alligator chop" to signal that the official saw a block rather than a foul.

I know that this topic has been discussed, but I wanted to respond to this thought. NFHS will not authorize the chop, because in the season it did so the number of "blops" (block/chop?) or foul/no-foul double calls would increase 100-fold.

It's one thing if one official passes on a foul and another calls it. It's quite another to have conflicting signals on a play. The latter looks bad, IMO.

Even apart from the question of whether we need a signal for a no-call, for this reason using the "chop" is bad mechanics.

Well I am not talking about this from a NF perspective. Not all states use NF mechanics like my state does not (to the letter that is). I am simply stating that the signal alone is not a bad signal. When it is used can be. I have no problem if someone is using this as clarification. I have used it in other situations when no possibility of another call is at issue. In other words, I have used it when the play in question is completely over. I use the tip signal on out of bounds calls often to clarify what I saw. I really do not care if the NF or anyone else likes it; I am communicating something to everyone without having to yell across the court.

Peace

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well I am not talking about this from a NF perspective. Not all states use NF mechanics like my state does not (to the letter that is). I am simply stating that the signal alone is not a bad signal. When it is used can be. I have no problem if someone is using this as clarification. I have used it in other situations when no possibility of another call is at issue. In other words, I have used it when the play in question is completely over. I use the tip signal on out of bounds calls often to clarify what I saw. I really do not care if the NF or anyone else likes it; I am communicating something to everyone without having to yell across the court.

Peace

1. It is a bad signal, for the reason I gave (your personal use of it notwithstanding).

2. Bringing in the "tipped ball" signal to this discussion is a famous Rutledge red herring: there's no comparable reason to discontinue using that signal.

3. The issue is not whether the signal communicates something, but whether it's the best way to communicate that content. Specifically, is it better than the mere absence of a whistle? Given its drawbacks, the answer is no, IMO.

4. You are, of course, free to ignore this reasoning and to keep doing it your way. That's not a reason supporting your view, though.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbyron

1. It is a bad signal, for the reason I gave (your personal use of it notwithstanding).

2. Bringing in the "tipped ball" signal to this discussion is a famous Rutledge red herring: there's no comparable reason to discontinue using that signal.

3. The issue is not whether the signal communicates something, but whether it's the best way to communicate that content. Specifically, is it better than the mere absence of a whistle? Given its drawbacks, the answer is no, IMO.

4. You are, of course, free to ignore this reasoning and to keep doing it your way. That's not a reason supporting your view, though.

To say something is a "bad mechanic" is very subjective in the first place. And to use the "approval" of one organization is even worse IMO. I remember hearing that same logic about the "not closely guarded" signal as well because it was not approved. Then for some reason the NF adopted it like they do a lot of other mechanics other levels use. And honestly I would not be surprised in a year or two a "tip signal" is approved considering the NCAA allows both Men's and Women's sides to use that signal. And I see officials use it all the time.

Now I did not say anything about whether it was a good mechanic or not. That was not the point. The point was that in this situation right or wrong the use of not use of a signal was not going to make that much difference as to whether the coach went off in my opinion. Coaches go off no matter what we do or do not do. And you can be sarcastic all you like, but just read this site, there are all kinds of coaches going off and a signal was not the cause.

Peace

[Anchor]

Nobody has mentioned the most obvious yet--the defender in the second video is clearly jumping towards the shooter. In so doing, having given up any semblance of a legal guarding position any contact (of which there is plenty) can be considered a foul. Did he gain an advantage? The official signaling that he capped the ball makes me think he gained a fairly significant advantage.

[bbcof83]

This is not the point of this video being posted, I know. The coach was 100% deserved in his two Ts. Wanted to bring something else up that I don't think anyone has mentioned.

I'm not passing judgment and I know some people aren't going to like this but I believe a foul may have been missed. Looking at the 2nd video, when the kid pulls up for 3 on the fast break, notice how the ball continues upward. I'm no scientist but I have to believe basic physics tells us if the defender's hand is slapping down and the shooter is bringing the ball up, if the ball is contacted, that ball should be forced down or at least slow it's ascent. It goes about 12 feet in the air. Also, looks as if the shooter's left hand goes down while the ball and right arm continue up.

I have to believe there was some contact here and if there's any contact from a defender from behind we have a foul.

Thoughts?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

This is not the point of this video being posted, I know. The coach was 100% deserved in his two Ts. Wanted to bring something else up that I don't think anyone has mentioned.

I'm not passing judgment and I know some people aren't going to like this but I believe a foul may have been missed. Looking at the 2nd video, when the kid pulls up for 3 on the fast break, notice how the ball continues upward. I'm no scientist but I have to believe basic physics tells us if the defender's hand is slapping down and the shooter is bringing the ball up, if the ball is contacted, that ball should be forced down or at least slow it's ascent. It goes about 12 feet in the air. Also, looks as if the shooter's left hand goes down while the ball and right arm continue up.

I have to believe there was some contact here and if there's any contact from a defender from behind we have a foul.

Thoughts?

Certainly could be true....and it also could possibly be true that there was a foul missed at the other end before the first "T".

But a missed call can never excuse the behavior that the coach exhibited imo.

There isn't a one of us that hasn't missed a call at some time. And I can guarantee that NO official ever wanted to miss a call either. And nobody feels worse that the official who just found out that he had missed a call. All you can do is see if you can learn something from it and then just move on to the next call.

Most coaches know that also.....will grumble a bit...and then move on too. And that's the way it should be.

Jmo.....