Legal? Sitting on butt an then lay down

[mick]

Originally Posted by mick

Section 44 TRAVELING

ART. 5 . . .

A player holding the ball:

a. May not touch the floor with a knee or any other part of the body other than
hand or foot.

I think Rule 44-5-a shows that a player (though sitting) holding the ball and then touching the player's back (not hand or foot) to the floor is a violation.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So if a player sitting on the floor who legally gains possession of the ball then touches the floor with his elbow, you're going to call the violation?

Shirley, I think the rule is not difficut.
"Other than hand or foot" is not a difficult concept, methinks.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by mick

Shirley, I think the rule is not difficut.

YouTube - michael scott don't call me shirley

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mick

Shirley, I think the rule is not difficut.
"Other than hand or foot" is not a difficult concept, methinks.
[/LEFT]

No, it's not, but whether it applies to a player who gains the ball while on the floor is up for discussion, don't you think?

[just another ref]

If interpreted literally, this rule could say that it is traveling when the player on the floor gains control.

...............player holding the ball may not touch the floor with......any other body part...............


It doesn't say may not subsequently touch.........

Therefore, we must conclude that4-44-5a refers to a standing player.
Correct?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If interpreted literally, this rule could say that it is traveling when the player on the floor gains control.

...............player holding the ball may not touch the floor with......any other body part...............


It doesn't say may not subsequently touch.........

Therefore, we must conclude that4-44-5a refers to a standing player.
Correct?

Wow -what a great interpretation. JAR, gotta' give you props for this. I think you may have nailed it. Deducing this puts you in the same category as that British detective with the deer stalker hat. I'm not kidding - this was absolutely brilliant.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Deducing this puts you in the same category as that British detective with the deer stalker hat.

"Excellent!" I cried. "Elementary," said he.

[mick]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If interpreted literally, this rule could say that it is traveling when the player on the floor gains control.

...............player holding the ball may not touch the floor with......any other body part...............


It doesn't say may not subsequently touch.........

Therefore, we must conclude that4-44-5a refers to a standing player.
Correct?

I was using the words that were printed and not the words which were omitted, imagined or possible heard from the *voices*.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by mick

I was using the words that were printed and not the words which were omitted, imagined or possible heard from the *voices*.

Except that in this case, there are implied words. That should be obvious. I don't think any one has ever observed or made a traveling call on a player who is seated or lying on the floor then picks up the ball. If we were to take the rule literally, that would be the necessary result.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No, it's not, but whether it applies to a player who gains the ball while on the floor is up for discussion, don't you think?

Descriptions and exceptions are shown for being on the floor [i.e., rolling, sliding, laying on the back, sitting up], but no exceptions are given for holding the ball.

Holding the ball is holding the ball, whether sitting or standing.

While holding the ball, if [standing or sitting] A slaps away a defender's hand, what, if any, kind of foul would be called on A?
While holding the ball, may [standing or sitting] A shoot, or pass, or start a dribble?

Then why while holding the ball may [standing or sitting] Player A be allowed to touch A's back (or elbow) to the floor, without a specifically noted exception to the rule [as written]?

If A is allowed to lay down, it is quite possible, though obviously not a basketball play, for A to lay down with enough force to locomote to another place on the court by laying back, legally sitting up, and laying back again.

I think the rule is clear.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mick

Descriptions and exceptions are shown for being on the floor [i.e., rolling, sliding, laying on the back, sitting up], but no exceptions are given for holding the ball.

Holding the ball is holding the ball, whether sitting or standing.

While holding the ball, if [standing or sitting] A slaps away a defender's hand, what, if any, kind of foul would be called on A?
While holding the ball, may [standing or sitting] A shoot, or pass, or start a dribble?

Then why while holding the ball may [standing or sitting] Player A be allowed to touch A's back (or elbow) to the floor, without a specifically noted exception to the rule [as written]?

If A is allowed to lay down, it is quite possible, though obviously not a basketball play, for A to lay down with enough force to locomote to another place on the court by laying back, legally sitting up, and laying back again.

I think the rule is clear.

Mick, I read this rule the was jar does. Yes, the rule is clear, but I've always understood your posted portion to be inapplicable to a player who legally gains control of the ball while otherwise in violation of this rule.

Restrictions on what may be done after gaining control on the floor are different. Otherwise, how do you not call a violation on the player for having his rear end touch the floor while he's holding it.

If you're going to say anything touching when he gained control is excepted, fine. Will you then call a violation on the player who gains control lying on his back and proceeds to touch his elbow to the floor?

If the rules you state apply to a player already on the floor, then my understanding of this rule is completely flawed.

"Coach, you're right, he was on the floor when he got it. But then he touched the floor with his calf when he straighted his legs out."

[mick]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Mick, I read this rule the was jar does. Yes, the rule is clear, but I've always understood your posted portion to be inapplicable to a player who legally gains control of the ball while otherwise in violation of this rule.

Restrictions on what may be done after gaining control on the floor are different. Otherwise, how do you not call a violation on the player for having his rear end touch the floor while he's holding it.

If you're going to say anything touching when he gained control is excepted, fine. Will you then call a violation on the player who gains control lying on his back and proceeds to touch his elbow to the floor?

If the rules you state apply to a player already on the floor, then my understanding of this rule is completely flawed.

"Coach, you're right, he was on the floor when he got it. But then he touched the floor with his calf when he straighted his legs out."

• The rule is clear but you undertood it to mean *more* based on what?
• Restrictions are spelled out. The allowance to sit and hold is shown. And as you showed most of the traveling rule is based upon what a player is allowed to do, while most of the other rules show what a player may not do.
• If the player touches his elbow for any reason other than sitting upright (which is permitted), then yes, I believe a violation has occurred.
• With no exception written for a player holding while sitting on the floor, I do not think an exception should be contrived.
• Again, if the player touches his body parts to the floor in an effort to sit up, I have no violation, but no movement by the player in the sitting position is permitted except passing, shooting and starting a dribble to rise. Neither laying down, nor leaning on an elbow is permitted.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mick

• The rule is clear but you undertood it to mean *more* based on what?
• Restrictions are spelled out. The allowance to sit and hold is shown. And as you showed most of the traveling rule is based upon what a player is allowed to do, while most of the other rules show what a player may not do.
• If the player touches his elbow for any reason other than sitting upright (which is permitted), then yes, I believe a violation has occurred.
• With no exception written for a player holding while sitting on the floor, I do not think an exception should be contrived.
• Again, if the player touches his body parts to the floor in an effort to sit up, I have no violation, but no movement by the player in the sitting position is permitted except passing, shooting and starting a dribble to rise. Neither laying down, nor leaning on an elbow is permitted.

I understand your interpretation, thanks Mick. I don't understand the portion highlighted in red, though.
It says a player may sit up, it doesn't specify that he may break other rules to do so.

[mick]

Originally Posted by mick

• The rule is clear but you undertood it to mean *more* based on what?
• Restrictions are spelled out. The allowance to sit and hold is shown. And as you showed most of the traveling rule is based upon what a player is allowed to do, while most of the other rules show what a player may not do.
• If the player touches his elbow for any reason other than sitting upright (which is permitted), then yes, I believe a violation has occurred.
• With no exception written for a player holding while sitting on the floor, I do not think an exception should be contrived.
• Again, if the player touches his body parts to the floor in an effort to sit up, I have no violation, but no movement by the player in the sitting position is permitted except passing, shooting and starting a dribble to rise. Neither laying down, nor leaning on an elbow is permitted.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I understand your interpretation, thanks Mick. I don't understand the portion highlighted in red, though.
It says a player may sit up, it doesn't specify that he may break other rules to do so.

I attempted to show that if an official interprets a movement (and subsequent touching of the floor by various body parts) by the player as simply the [allowed] attempt to sit up, then no violation has occurred.