Flagrant T or not?

[Nevadaref]

Impugning the integrity of an official would earn a flagrant from me.

[BillyMac]

Tim Donaghy would have just ignored the comment, no technical.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Impugning the integrity of an official would earn a flagrant from me.

Sorry, rules don't warrant/support a Flagrant for this situation. Any consideration of a flagrant for this is a reach on the part of the official.

Once again, Nevada is making the game about him.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Sorry, rules don't warrant/support a Flagrant for this situation. Any consideration of a flagrant for this is a reach on the part of the official.

Once again, Nevada is making the game about him.

Really, and you decide to impugn the motives of Nevada by insisting he's making it about him?

I've had my share of disagreements with Nevada, and this may or may not be one of them (I may have tossed him, especially after a warning), but he's not alone in this one. And, frankly, your shot here is just gratuitous.

Disagree with him if you want, but really?

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Sorry, rules don't warrant/support a Flagrant for this situation.

I don't think that is the case at all - what constitutes a flagrant technical is clearly a matter of judgement, is it not? So how could the rules not "warrant/support" such a call? I can certainly understand the argument that a flagrant is not necessary, but I don't think it is really that cut and dried.

A flagrant foul (technical) is one defined by rule as "displaying unacceptable behavior". I think accusing an official of cheating certainly can be argued to fall under that definition.

[Berkut]

In the interest of a little more context, this was a very ugly game. The home team racked up something like 38 fouls, and 95% of them were garbage - reaches, over-agressive play, stupid crap. A T was called on a player for complaining about calls, and certainly a couple more could have (should have?) been called. The game was generally one of those deals where you are doing your best to just manage the train wreck. Home team lost 40-80.

The reason the comment bothered me is that the attitude of the assistant was so clearly reflected in his players. They were getting their asses kicked, and the 40 point lead was not because they could not play defense, could not make a pass, and lacked fundamentals, but because the officials were screwing them. Just look at that foul count! We won't call fouls on the other team, and won't "let them just play" either.

To me, this assistant, sitting right next to his players, blaming this train wreck on the cheating officials was pretty much the casebook example of grossly poor sportsmanship and refusal to take any responsibility for their own actions.

All this, of course, is in hindsight. In the moment, I don't think I would have thought this through, and likely would have done the same thing as my partner.

[grunewar]

it occurs to me one of the things I like best about this Forum......

Every time I think I've called an "iffy" game, missed some calls, am disappointed by my performance, or thought I could do better, or had "one of "those" games, I can come here and y'all can trump it and make me feel better!

While I've had a few, I rarely: have coaches/players/fans go nuts, issue T's, have administrative nightmares, have that game that get totally out of control, etc. But, I am better prepared ffor it if they do!

Thanks for always cheering me up......kinda!

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Berkut

In the interest of a little more context, this was a very ugly game. The home team racked up something like 38 fouls, and 95% of them were garbage - reaches, over-agressive play, stupid crap. A T was called on a player for complaining about calls, and certainly a couple more could have (should have?) been called. The game was generally one of those deals where you are doing your best to just manage the train wreck. Home team lost 40-80.

"...reaches...?"

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Berkut

Reaches.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

"Reaches?"

Berkut: I agree with BktBallRef. If you are an official, posting on this Forum, please speak only in "Officialese". That' the only way we will know, for sure, that you're a real official, not an impostor. If we all don't speak "Officialese", then the only way to tell us apart from coaches, fanboys, players, etc. will be for the Official Forum to issue us some type of identification badge, or something? Official Forum badges? Cool. When asked, we could just whip it out (no comments from Mark Padgett please.).

YouTube - Classic Movie Line #34

YouTube - We don't need no stinking badges!

[BillyMac]

C'mon guys. A coach, on the court, within hearing distance of players, and fans, accuses an official of cheating, and some of you argue that a flagrant foul is not warranted, by rule? You've got to be kidding me? Now I can certainly understand an argument regarding whether, or not, a flagrant foul is warranted in this situation, we all have different length fuses, but to argue that it's not warranted, by rule, is ridiculous. Do any of you really believe that the NFHS would not consider a coach publicly accusing an official of cheating, during the game, of being a flagrant act?

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Berkut: I agree with BktBallRef. If you are an official, posting on this Forum, please speak only in "Officialese".

Fair enough.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Berkut

The home team racked up something like 38 fouls, and 95% of them were garbage - reaches, over-agressive play, stupid crap.

Don't tell us you called "reaching" fouls. I'm sure you mean they reached and caused contact illegally with their hands. And...what's the mechanic for "stupid crap"?

BTW - if any team personnel impugns my integrity by implying I'm cheating, it's automatically a flagrant foul, with possibly the exception of "call it both ways". In that case, I inform them that comment means I'm cheating in favor of one team over the other and I won't stand for it. If that doesn't shut them up about that issue, then it's a flagrant T.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Don't tell us you called "reaching" fouls. I'm sure you mean they reached and caused contact illegally with their hands. And...what's the mechanic for "stupid crap"?

BTW - if any team personnel impugns my integrity by implying I'm cheating, it's automatically a flagrant foul, with possibly the exception of "call it both ways". In that case, I inform them that comment means I'm cheating in favor of one team over the other and I won't stand for it. If that doesn't shut them up about that issue, then it's a flagrant T.

"Reaches" - as in a colloquiolism meaning "randomly sticking your arm out into the dribbler in the vain hope that you can poke the ball out rather than actually playing any actual defense - usually from behind or the side as the guy is blowing past you..."

The stupid crap mechanic is usually a shrug of the shoulders, right?

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Berkut

I don't think that is the case at all - what constitutes a flagrant technical is clearly a matter of judgement, is it not? So how could the rules not "warrant/support" such a call? I can certainly understand the argument that a flagrant is not necessary, but I don't think it is really that cut and dried.

A flagrant foul (technical) is one defined by rule as "displaying unacceptable behavior". I think accusing an official of cheating certainly can be argued to fall under that definition.

If you have to argue your point, your case is not very strong.

Flagrant Foul definition:
...may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking, and kneeing. If technical, it involved deadball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar, or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

You can't get there in this case.

Additionally, nothing in 10.4 - 5 supports your case for flagrant.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

If you have to argue your point, your case is not very strong.

Flagrant Foul definition:
...may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking, and kneeing. If technical, it involved deadball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar, or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

You can't get there in this case.

Additionally, nothing in 10.4 - 5 supports your case for flagrant.

Let me ask you this. A1, comes up to you and says, "You're a fuc#ing moron." You going flagrant with this?

Assistant coach says the same thing. You going with a standard T?
HC says the same thing. What's your call?

I've got a flagrant on all of them. Frankly, accusing me of cheating is just as unacceptable.