T Up a Fan?!?

[Mrcrash3]

Amen
...and to all a goodnight

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

No, it was not appropriate to give the fan an ultimatum. You should never back yourself into such a corner with a coach, player, or fan.

Yes, the parent is a fan, no matter what he does.

No, he is not bench personnel.

To whack the fan would have been stupidity, as it's only going to rein more crap down on top of you.

Once someone is attending the player, back away as far as you need to. It could be an emotional situation, get way from it. Let game management handle the fan.

Handle the situation with some maturity and calm, not with emotion.

Common sense prevails.

[TimTaylor]

Our instructions in the event of a player injury are to stop play and beckon the coach/trainer onto the floor, then step away from the situation and let them deal with it. Our time is better spent keeping track of what is going on with the rest of the players while the coach's attention is focused elsewhere. Penalize the team with a T for a concerned parent coming onto the floor? - no way! Distance from the situation can be your friend - if the officials are not in the immediate area, then they can't easily be approached by an upset parent. That alone will give them a chance to think twice before saying or doing something stupid. If they do it anyway, then their actions should be dealt with by game management in the same manner as they would with any other unruly fan.

Dealing with fans in general is the responsibility of game management. While the officials do have the authority under the rules to assess a T for fan behavior, it should be as a last resort. If a fan becomes aggressive or unruly and game management can't or won't control it, maybe, but even then I'd prefer to get law enforcement involved and let them deal with it. Further penalizing a team for the actions of an angry or unruly fan or fans has the potential of throwing gasoline on the flames.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That is complete and utter BS. Only an idiot would try to prevent a parent from attending to their child when injured, or worse you, eject the parent for doing so.

Just to be clear on my position on this matter.
I'm not going to say a word to the parent or anyone who comes down out of the stands. I'm not going to try to prevent such a person from doing anything. However, I am going to insist that the boundaries of the playing area are respected and reserved for the participants. The spectators are to KEEP OUT. If that is not done, then I will penalize the team whose followers are responsible for that breach.

I have no problem if game management decides to bring in a parent or guardian down for consultation after deciding that an injury is very serious and this is done in the proper manner. However, I'm not going to suffer fools who rush in at the first cry from Johnny or Suzie.

We simply cannot have people coming out of the stands and onto the court whenever they please.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Just to be clear on my position on this matter.
I'm not going to say a word to the parent or anyone who comes down out of the stands. I'm not going to try to prevent such a person from doing anything. However, I am going to insist that the boundaries of the playing area are respected and reserved for the participants. The spectators are to KEEP OUT. If that is not done, then I will penalize the team whose followers are responsible for that breach.

I have no problem if game management decides to bring in a parent or guardian down for consultation after deciding that an injury is very serious and this is done in the proper manner. However, I'm not going to suffer fools who rush in at the first cry from Johnny or Suzie.

We simply cannot have people coming out of the stands and onto the court whenever they please.

So, even though you have taken a slight step back on this matter, if the kid falls in a screaming mass and the parent quickly steps out to attend without first being properly identified, you still would consider this to be "conduct which interferes with the orderly progress of the game?"

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So, even though you have taken a slight step back on this matter,...

I haven't stepped back at all. You simply didn't grasp my position correctly from the beginning.

Originally Posted by just another ref

...if the kid falls in a screaming mass and the parent quickly steps out to attend without first being properly identified, you still would consider this to be "conduct which interferes with the orderly progress of the game?"

No different than a coach rushing onto the court without proper permission.

Whack, buh-bye.

The NFHS rules on this are clear. People need permission to enter the court.

10.4.5 SITUATION B: A fight breaks out between A1 and B1 during a dead-ball
and clock-stopped situation. The head coach of Team A rushes onto the court.
RULING: A1 and B1 are charged with flagrant technical fouls and are disqualified.
No free throws are awarded for the double technical foul by A1 and B1. Since the
coach was not beckoned onto the court by an official, he/she is charged with a
flagrant technical foul and is disqualified. Team B is awarded two free throws and
the ball for a throw-in at the division line opposite the table.

[Smitty]

Wow - big difference between coming onto the court because of a fight and an injured player. I just don't get your logic.

[bbcoach7]

We are talking about legal minors here, correct? The sole purpose of the waiver is two fold, first (but sometimes this is ommited) to release from financial liability the School and all named in the form. Second, to give permission for medical treatment as necessary to be rendered to a minor in the absence of the parent in a case where the parent is not present to give such permission in person. In most States (if not all), medical treatment cannot legally be rendered to a minor unless the injury is clearly life threatning. Essentially without direct parent permission, or the legal signed consent form, they have to be unconscious, or bleeding out. Hence the Medical Waiver is necessary to administer treatment. In no way is a consent form intended nor shall ever be interpreted to hold more weight than the actual parent. Cheagle- if the HS team Doctor is the top neuro surgeon in the country and the kid is unconscious on the floor, and Dad comes over picks kid up and takes kid to the hospital, the only thing everyone else in the building can, or should do is get the HE- double hockey sticks- out of the way! May not be the smartest thing to do, but NO PIECE OF PAPER holds more weight or power than thge parent. Not even the official scorer who apparently memorizes rule books, LOL

As for penalizing a team, or kicking a parent out of a game because the parent came down from the stands to check on their hurt child, well you can do that if you choose, and I can consider you to be a bloody moron if I choose for doing that, or even suggesting in a thread that you would.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Wow - big difference between coming onto the court because of a fight and an injured player. I just don't get your logic.

The NFHS doesn't think so.

[just another ref]

You hold the coach and the parent of an injured player to the same standard??

Interesting.

[Mark Padgett]

Ya' know, Nevadaref is right. A few seasons ago, I was training a HS kid to ref in a rec league game that was 3rd-4th grade girls. One of the girls went up to dunk the ball and wedged her wrist between the rim and the backboard and her arm ripped right off. When she fell to the floor, she bashed her head open. Her arm socket was shooting blood and there was brain matter falling out of the top of her open head.

Of course I waited for the other team, who had got the rebound, to finish their fast break before I blew the whistle and then beckoned the coach out. Then the girl's 90 year old grandmother stumbled out of the bleachers using her walker to come over to the girl. As soon as she stepped onto the court, I immediately physically picked her up off the floor, carried her to the door and threw her into the parking lot.

After all, she had no business coming out onto the floor, since I'm sure the girl's parents signed a waiver.

Oh yeah - I also hit that team with a flagrant technical and then I told the coach the girl couldn't return until the first dead ball following the ball becoming live.

That's what the rule says I should have done, right Nevadaref?

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by bbcoach7

We are talking about legal minors here, correct? The sole purpose of the waiver is two fold, first (but sometimes this is ommited) to release from financial liability the School and all named in the form. Second, to give permission for medical treatment as necessary to be rendered to a minor in the absence of the parent in a case where the parent is not present to give such permission in person. In most States (if not all), medical treatment cannot legally be rendered to a minor unless the injury is clearly life threatning. Essentially without direct parent permission, or the legal signed consent form, they have to be unconscious, or bleeding out. Hence the Medical Waiver is necessary to administer treatment. In no way is a consent form intended nor shall ever be interpreted to hold more weight than the actual parent. Cheagle- if the HS team Doctor is the top neuro surgeon in the country and the kid is unconscious on the floor, and Dad comes over picks kid up and takes kid to the hospital, the only thing everyone else in the building can, or should do is get the HE- double hockey sticks- out of the way! May not be the smartest thing to do, but NO PIECE OF PAPER holds more weight or power than thge parent. Not even the official scorer who apparently memorizes rule books, LOL

As for penalizing a team, or kicking a parent out of a game because the parent came down from the stands to check on their hurt child, well you can do that if you choose, and I can consider you to be a bloody moron if I choose for doing that, or even suggesting in a thread that you would.

So even if the medical personnel say not to move the student-athlete, even though the parent does, that's ok?

What about the Hippocratic Oath?

"I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:
To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.

I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art.

In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves.

All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal.

If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot."

If I was a coach or floor official, I would rely more on the professional judgement/opinion of a medical professional than a paranoid, frantic parent. Parents, true, are doing what they think is best for their child(ren), but at what cost?

So in all actually the only way a parent should be allowed on the court is if they are medical professionals. If not, they need to stay out of the way of those that are. Like I said before, a parent should be involved yes, but only after the student-athlete has been removed from the court & out of sight of all spectators.

If I was working crowd control in this situation, I would physically put myself between the parent & the student-athlete so that they could not become one until after removed from the court. One of the primary rules in crowd control is to de-escalate the situation before it gets blown out of proportion. By allowing the parent onto the court, you have just allowed a match to be lit in a potentially explosive situation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by mark padgett

ya' know, nevadaref is right. A few seasons ago, i was training a hs kid to ref in a rec league game that was 3rd-4th grade girls. One of the girls went up to dunk the ball and wedged her wrist between the rim and the backboard and her arm ripped right off. When she fell to the floor, she bashed her head open. Her arm socket was shooting blood and there was brain matter falling out of the top of her open head.

Of course i waited for the other team, who had got the rebound, to finish their fast break before i blew the whistle and then beckoned the coach out. Then the girl's 90 year old grandmother stumbled out of the bleachers using her walker to come over to the girl. As soon as she stepped onto the court, i immediately physically picked her up off the floor, carried her to the door and threw her into the parking lot.

After all, she had no business coming out onto the floor, since i'm sure the girl's parents signed a waiver.

Oh yeah - i also hit that team with a flagrant technical and then i told the coach the girl couldn't return until the first dead ball following the ball becoming live.

That's what the rule says i should have done, right nevadaref?

way too much eggnog.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by chseagle

If I was working crowd control in this situation, I would physically put myself between the parent & the student-athlete so that they could not become one until after removed from the court. One of the primary rules in crowd control is to de-escalate the situation before it gets blown out of proportion. By allowing the parent onto the court, you have just allowed a match to be lit in a potentially explosive situation.

And if you get between me and my injured kid, there will be a much bigger problem. This is utter nonsense.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Smitty

And if you get between me and my injured kid, there will be a much bigger problem. This is utter nonsense.

Actually from a crowd control POV, it makes perfect sense as it gives the medical personnel present a chance to appropriately evaluate the situation without interference.

Like I said before, the parent would be allowed to be involved but as a bystander until the student-athlete is off the court & either in the locker room or in the process of being transported either via the parent themselves or ambulance.