10 secound backcourt or not

[Back In The Saddle]

There's also the small matter of the clock starting on the touch and the count not beginning until there is control. The OP doesn't say if there was any discrepancy there or not, but just because 10 seconds ran off the clock doesn't necessarily mean there is a 10 second violation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

There's also the small matter of the clock starting on the touch and the count not beginning until there is control. The OP doesn't say if there was any discrepancy there or not, but just because 10 seconds ran off the clock doesn't necessarily mean there is a 10 second violation.

True, but that wouldn't (or shouldn't) lead to resetting the shot clock to 27 seconds, as in the OP.

It could lead to properly granting a TO with 23 or 24 seconds on the shot clock and no 10-second violation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Or, the official had an 8 count and determined that based on that, the shot clock must have started early. Perhaps the ball was touched inbounds before team control was established; starting the game clock (properly) and the shot clock (improperly).

You might want to check when is the proper time to start the shot clock.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You might want to check when is the proper time to start the shot clock.

Okay, allow me to ask, then.
Play:
BC throwin for A with new shot clock. Throwin is tipped by a) A2, who does not gain control or b) B1, who does not gain control, before being controlled by A3 (two seconds later for the sake of clarity).

When do you start the shot clock?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Okay, allow me to ask, then.
Play:
BC throwin for A with new shot clock. Throwin is tipped by a) A2, who does not gain control or b) B1, who does not gain control, before being controlled by A3 (two seconds later for the sake of clarity).

When do you start the shot clock?

In NCAA the shot clock starts when the ball is legally touched inbounds. The 10-second count doesn't begin until there's control.

What they do in WA might be different.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Okay, allow me to ask, then.
Play:
BC throwin for A with new shot clock. Throwin is tipped by a) A2, who does not gain control or b) B1, who does not gain control, before being controlled by A3 (two seconds later for the sake of clarity).

When do you start the shot clock?

a) when the throw-in pass is tipped by A2
b) when the throw-in pass is tipped by B1

From the current NCAA rules:
Rule 2
Section 11. Duties of Shot-Clock Operator
The shot-clock operator shall:...

5. Start the timing device when a player inbounds legally touches or is
touched by the ball on a throw-in or when a team initially gains possession
from a jump ball, an unsuccessful try for goal or when possession is gained
of a loose ball after a jump ball or unsuccessful try for goal.

[Adam]

I have to wonder whether this has anything to do with there being team control during a throwin, but I'm just speculating. I had assumed that for the shot clock to start, team control would have needed to begin.

Having only worked one game with a shot clock, ever, I'm not surprised I had that one wrong.

[rockyroad]

This is from the WIAA website - since the 35 sec. shot clock is new for boys this year, they posted very clear instructions on their website. The rules are pretty much the same as the NCAA rules.

Art. 5 Start the timing device when a player in bounds legally touches or is touched by the
ball on a throw-in or when a team initially gains possession from a jump ball, an
unsuccessful try for goal or a loose ball.

[chseagle]

To clarify things, Team B had full control of the ball the whole time.

[Time2Ref]

Originally Posted by chseagle

To clarify things, Team B had full control of the ball the whole time.

yes, and apparently for 8 seconds.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by CoachP

9.2 seconds on the clock. Does anyone here start a 10 second count?

I do. I always count. You never know when you'll be needing some type of definite knowledge. Ten seconds. Five seconds. Three seconds. Aways count, no matter how little time is left on the game clock.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I do. I always count. You never know when you'll be needing some type of definite knowledge. Ten seconds. Five seconds. Three seconds. Aways count, no matter how little time is left on the game clock.

Ditto on that. If you have counted five and the timer neglected to start the clock on an inbound, for example, there is definite knowledge to bring the clock down to 4.2.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

In NCAA the shot clock starts when the ball is legally touched inbounds. The 10-second count doesn't begin until there's control.

What they do in WA might be different.

In Washington, the state rules state the shot clock starts when player/team control is established.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

In Washington, the state rules state the shot clock starts when player/team control is established.

I'll refrain from an "I told you so" simply because I was guessing anyway.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

In Washington, the state rules state the shot clock starts when player/team control is established.

Which brings us right back to referee99's earlier post: If the shot clock operator didn't hold the reset until player/team control is gained or misjudged when that occurred (ie: touched vs. controlled) that could easily account for the three second difference. From the description, it appears that is what the trail official observed to occur, which would explain why he had the shot clock reset.

In any case, as has been pointed out by both rule and case book situation, the trail official has the sole responsibility and authority for determining the occurrence of a 10 second back court violation. This is not the job of either the timer or shot clock operator - they need to focus on their own responsibilities and let the officials take care of theirs.

There are a lot of subtle nuances in the practice and art of officiating, and it takes a lot of time and effort to learn to apply them effectively and consistently. Coaches, players, table crew and fans for the most part have no clue unless they've been there.

Rant mode off - nomex underwear on.....flame away!