bad day

[representing]

Originally Posted by rsl

sorry for the long post. I had the worst game ever this week (soph boys) due to my own mistakes, amplified by a rookie partner, rookie scorekeeper, rookie timer, and a pair of howler monkeys. But ultimately these were my mistakes, and i'd like some advice:

At start of second half, throw-in goes into backcourt and within about two steps i call a quick hand check foul on the defense. As i report the foul, i check the clock and realize it never started. Since the ball went into the backcourt, i had started a ten second count, but in the process of getting the foul i can't remember what count i reached. Without definite knowledge, i don't take any time off. Defensive coach goes ballistic and says if i don't take time off i have to take away the foul, too.
like some have said, i would have taken at least one second off. If you know for sure that you counted x number of times your hand was extended, then take x seconds off.

in the middle of the fourth, we have a rebounding foul in the double bonus, so we walk from one end to the other and line up the players. I bounce the ball to the shooter and immediately notice the scorekeeper holding up five fingers indicating the player has five fouls (no horn, even though we have walked the length of the floor). Rather than take the ball back, i let the player shoot the ball. After the shot misses, the coach (same coach as above) says his player gets another shot because the other team had an ineligible player on the lane. I respond that he is not ineligible until i notify his coach and the shot stands.
i may be wrong here, but this is what i would have done. Don't interrupt the first shot, balls already given to shooter, and the 5-foul player won't be interrupting flow of game at this point. Then, when tie coach would say that his player should have another shot, i would have said "coach, the player was not involve with any further plays after the clock was dead for his 5th foul. I cannot give your player another shot as it was a fta." it is not one of the five correctable errors.

here is where it gets really ugly. We get the new player in, and i bounce the ball for the second shot, the shot misses, and my partner blows his whistle before team control. Apparently the coach has convinced him he does get another shot. So now we have a whistle with no control, and we have to go to the arrow and the shooting team gets the ball back.
correct! Inadvertent whistle with no team control. I probably would have t'd up the coach for trying to take advantage of the rookie, but that would have depend on the nature of the game. I wasn't there, so i couldn't tell you for sure on t.

now both coaches are ticked. One thinks he should get another shot, the other knows he would have got the rebound and now doesn't get the ball. About two minutes later another player fouls out and the other coach refuses to provide a sub as a protest over the whole thing, so i have to t him up.
technically, you could have ended the game, as that would be a forfeiture brought on by the coach. However, i would have t'd him up too and see if that would get him to put in another player. If not after that, then automatic forfeit.

the t finally settles things down, and we ride out the last two minutes. Here what i think i should have done:

(1) taken two seconds off the clock just for appearance sake at the start of the second half. That is where the coach started getting agitated.

(2) blown the whistle when i realized the player had fouled out, rather than letting the shot go. Also, make sure i follow the procedure exactly for a player with five fouls, i.e., notify the player, then coach, then start the 20 second clock.

(3) had my rookie partner administer the shot and been table side myself to deal with the coaches. Also, just had better communication with my partner.

Any thoughts? Live and learn, or quit altogether?

read red print above for my thoughts...

[Loudwhistle]

RSL,
Don't feel too bad about what happened! Of course learn from it and apply that wisdom to future games. I'll bet just about every reff on here has had a similar experience. I find myself reliving the game the next day and its hard for me to put behind mistakes I made. I DO NOT make the same mistake again in future games. You typing all this out is another way of really pounding it out in your head so it doesn't happen again! It gets better the longer you reff!

[Adam]

Representing, can you tell me which rule says the coach has forfeited the game by not providing his sub within 20 seconds? Hint:It's not there.

[Adam]

Regarding the OP.
Whether you take time off the clock isn't really relevant to the coach's rant. He's flat our wrong about the rule, and he's wrong to go ballistic. If he's been a howler monkey already, this is a good spot for a T. If you want to be nice, "Coach, I understand you disagree with me on the rule, but I can't have you yelling at me."

On your second situation, I'd be tempted to let him know that he's now incorrectly challenged me on two rules in the same game, and I have a three strikes policy. In reality, I would have already talked to him after the first incident about proper behavior or I would have T'd him; either way, he's less likely to get stupid here. If he does, easy T.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by representing

technically, you could have ended the game, as that would be a forfeiture brought on by the coach. However, i would have t'd him up too and see if that would get him to put in another player. If not after that, then automatic forfeit.

Forfeiting a game is the last thing you ever want to do, under any situation.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Forfeiting a game is the last thing you ever want to do, under any situation.

Gee, would that be because it's not the rule?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Gee, would that be because it's not the rule?

What, exactly, do you mean by this? There are provisions for a forfeit under extreme circumstances. I personally did it once.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What, exactly, do you mean by this? There are provisions for a forfeit under extreme circumstances. I personally did it once.

You're correct, but failing to provide a sub within 20 seconds does not qualify.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You're correct, but failing to provide a sub within 20 seconds does not qualify.

But, then, after being assessed a technical, what if he still doesn't provide the sub?

The phrase "......repeatedly commits technical-foul infractions...." is contained in 5-4-1. At some point you would have no choice.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

But, then, after being assessed a technical, what if he still doesn't provide the sub?

The phrase "......repeatedly commits technical-foul infractions...." is contained in 5-4-1. At some point you would have no choice.

Agreed. In this scenario, once it becomes obvious he's going to be an a$$, start it again. He'll have his two if he doesn't comply. I'm not sure the rule really addresses what to do here, though, but this situation could conceivably escalate to forfeiture. First, however, you'd have:
1. first T and the seat belt.
2. second T and ejection.
3. Now, you're dealing with the Assistant coach who just watched you dump his boss. Think he's really going to push you too hard?

[mbyron]

Sounds like you've already reflected on and analyzed the game. Now file it away, get back on the floor, and have some fun.

[rsl]

Lots of good advice... thanks guys.

This game was actually last Friday, and I have been contemplating all week.

It seems an earlier T would have been in order, then I would have gotten the right coach instead of the second coach.

I still need to figure out how to handle coaches- I didn't think fast enough on my feet. Frankly, I didn't think two seconds on the clock would be the trigger for the coach. I'm still confused about that one.

Back on the court tomorrow for a JV game with a varsity partner- that should help. Then I have a freshman game Friday with another rookie. We'll see if I'm ready.

Thanks Again!

[Adam]

If the varsity partner is someone you respect and whose career you'd like to follow, ask him for his opinion (or her) of your situation last week. You'll be able to give more details on the coach's behavior; and he may be familiar enough with the coach to advice that's better than we can offer here.

[Lcubed48]

Originally Posted by rsl

Lots of good advice... thanks guys.

This game was actually last Friday, and I have been contemplating all week.

Did you conduct a post game with your partner after all that mess?
I had a similar stich last season. I was doing a BJV game with my little brother. I had called a double personal foul. Upon returning from reporting it at the table, I see my partner is talking with the one coach whose team isn't going to receive the POI throw in. Just as I walk up, I hear the coach ask him whose ball will it be. He responds that we will use the AP meaning it is now his team's throw in. I stepped in with the correct ruling, and told him that I would take care of everything at half time. We didn't hear anymore about it from him. I put my partner on the correct page during the intermission.
AND, come back strong!!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by representing

read red print above for my thoughts...
Without definite knowledge, i don't take any time off. Defensive coach goes ballistic and says if i don't take time off i have to take away the foul, too.
like some have said, i would have taken at least one second off. If you know for sure that you counted x number of times your hand was extended, then take x seconds off.

in the middle of the fourth, we have a rebounding foul in the double bonus, so we walk from one end to the other and line up the players. I bounce the ball to the shooter and immediately notice the scorekeeper holding up five fingers indicating the player has five fouls (no horn, even though we have walked the length of the floor). Rather than take the ball back, i let the player shoot the ball. After the shot misses, the coach (same coach as above) says his player gets another shot because the other team had an ineligible player on the lane. I respond that he is not ineligible until i notify his coach and the shot stands.
i may be wrong here, but this is what i would have done. Don't interrupt the first shot, balls already given to shooter, and the 5-foul player won't be interrupting flow of game at this point. Then, when tie coach would say that his player should have another shot, i would have said "coach, the player was not involve with any further plays after the clock was dead for his 5th foul. I cannot give your player another shot as it was a fta." it is not one of the five correctable errors.

here is where it gets really ugly. We get the new player in, and i bounce the ball for the second shot, the shot misses, and my partner blows his whistle before team control. Apparently the coach has convinced him he does get another shot. So now we have a whistle with no control, and we have to go to the arrow and the shooting team gets the ball back.
correct! Inadvertent whistle with no team control. I probably would have t'd up the coach for trying to take advantage of the rookie, but that would have depend on the nature of the game. I wasn't there, so i couldn't tell you for sure on t.

now both coaches are ticked. One thinks he should get another shot, the other knows he would have got the rebound and now doesn't get the ball. About two minutes later another player fouls out and the other coach refuses to provide a sub as a protest over the whole thing, so i have to t him up.
technically, you could have ended the game, as that would be a forfeiture brought on by the coach. However, i would have t'd him up too and see if that would get him to put in another player. If not after that, then automatic forfeit.

Guys, do any of you have enough energy to deal with this guy?
His comments indicate that he is cocky, arrogant, brash, a control freak, and grossly incorrect in the rulings which he provides, yet seems to expect us to roll out the welcome mat for the presence of this new king of officiating. I seriously doubt that he is working above the JV level.

I wish the ol' cranky one hadn't departed.

Lah me.