Time-out, 4 return, when can 5th return?

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Not sure I agree it's a technical foul immediately once the officials notice there are only 4 players. I think once the 5th returns that's when you can say that they all didn't return at approximately the same time. Without the 5th returning, who is to say that they didn't all return at the same time? Following the time-out, maybe they only had 4 players available to play. How are we to know? If it's charged immediately once the officials notice there are only 4 players, why did they offer the piece of information in red in the case play?

DELAYING RETURN FOLLOWING TIME-OUT
10.1.9 SITUATION: Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their
coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will
resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1
attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to
B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass. RULING: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time.

I'm going to say an immediate T once discovered.

Scenario.......... 'A' fails to have five players return to floor. With 30 seconds to go,they have a one point lead and are in a stall situation. A coach realizes they are missing a player and holds A5 from entering court as a T is forthcoming.

Assuming your logic regarding T, if I'm A coach, A5 is not going in, period.

[tjones1]

My point is how do we know until the 5th returns that all of them didn't return at the same time? There is nothing that prevents a team from playing with 4 players provided there isn't an available sub. Also, there isn't anything that prevents a team to return to 5 players if a player becomes available. If a player isn't available it's not up to us to question as to why they aren't available.... am I spinning or do you see what I'm getting at?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by tjones1

My point is how do we know until the 5th returns that all of them didn't return at the same time? There is nothing that prevents a team from playing with 4 players provided there isn't an available sub. Also, there isn't anything that prevents a team to return to 5 players if a player becomes available. If a player isn't available it's not up to us to question as to why they aren't available.... am I spinning or do you see what I'm getting at?

I see what you're getting at, but you're trying too hard. If a team is going to play with 4, but has players on the bench, we should be asking the coach for a 5th. If he then tells us none of them are available, fine, whatever.

But, that's not the case in this situation. Stop the game, call the T, if the coach wants to tell you nobody else was available you can decide whether or not to 'uncall' it.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by fullor30

I'm going to say an immediate T once discovered.

Scenario.......... 'A' fails to have five players return to floor. With 30 seconds to go,they have a one point lead and are in a stall situation. A coach realizes they are missing a player and holds A5 from entering court as a T is forthcoming.

Assuming your logic regarding T, if I'm A coach, A5 is not going in, period.

It notes that for Art. 7 in 10-1; however, not Art. 9.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by tjones1

It notes that for Art. 7 in 10-1; however, not Art. 9.

I would say that if not specified otherwise, it is inferred that this, like most infractions, is penalized when discovered, when it happens, etc. I think the important part is what is not said:

Penalized if/when the 5th player returns to the court.

[Illini_Ref]

I'm going with tjones on this one.

It says that ALL players must return at the same time not FIVE players.

The case play has the T called when the slacker player enters the court.

[BillyMac]

I'm getting really confused trying to follow this thread on two different forums. I've been tempted to do this, and I may have even done it, but I'm not going to even think about doing it again.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

It says that ALL players must return at the same time not FIVE players.

10-1-9: A team shall not fail to have all players return to the court...........


3-1-1: Each team consists of five players..........




If five don't return, they ain't all there.

[Illini_Ref]

Now don't just post part of 3-1-1. Read the "Note" below the section.

tjones' point is this. You cannot discover that all eligible players didn't return to the floor until one comes in late. To do so would be guessing on who is injured, sick, has a uniform problem, blood problem, etc. If you call a technical because a kid is puking on the bench and didn't come out of a timeout, I think you are wrong. Now if he pukes, then runs in after the throw-in, whack him.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

If you call a technical because a kid is puking on the bench and didn't come out of a timeout, I think you are wrong. Now if he pukes, then runs in after the throw-in, whack him.

NFHS 10-3-4-PENALTY EXCEPTION: If said player pukes on the shoes of the head coach, no technical foul will be charged for this specific act.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

You cannot discover that all eligible players didn't return to the floor until one comes in late. To do so would be guessing on who is injured, sick, has a uniform problem, blood problem, etc. If you call a technical because a kid is puking on the bench and didn't come out of a timeout, I think you are wrong. Now if he pukes, then runs in after the throw-in, whack him.

I can't? I think I can, because I can see when a team has just 4 players.

As I read this, it seems that you're trying to penalize the wrong infraction. By waiting until a player enters late, you're trying to penalize that player for returning late.

But the rule specifies penalizing the team for failing to return to together. That team technical foul is NOT charged to the player who returned late.

So if 4 are on the floor, I don't need to know which player is returning late or why. The team has committed an infraction by failing to return as a team, regardless of the reason.

If there's an issue such as illness or injury, we deal with that by following the rules concerning time-outs and substitutions, not by suspending other rules about returning to the floor.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by just another ref

10-1-9: A team shall not fail to have all players return to the court...........


3-1-1: Each team consists of five players..........




If five don't return, they ain't all there.

A team doesn't always consits of five players though, that's the point that myself and tjones is getting at. A team can play (after the start of the game) with four if they wish, unless there is a rule I don't know about.

-Josh

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jdmara

A team doesn't always consits of five players though, that's the point that myself and tjones is getting at. A team can play (after the start of the game) with four if they wish, unless there is a rule I don't know about.

-Josh

A team can play with four only if that is all they have available. There is no indication that this is true in the case at hand.

[Back In The Saddle]

Yes, under "extraordinary" circumstances a team may play with four. However, that is reading something into the rule and/or case that isn't specified.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by jdmara

A team doesn't always consits of five players though, that's the point that myself and tjones is getting at. A team can play (after the start of the game) with four if they wish, unless there is a rule I don't know about.

-Josh

Just to clarify: a team may not play with less than five if they have five players available. A team may not choose to play with less than five.

That said, if a coach tells you only four of his players are available to play (players could be unavailable for a variety of reasons we don't have the authority to rule on), then you would continue the game with less than five on the court.