Time-out, 4 return, when can 5th return?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by tjones1

It notes that for Art. 7 in 10-1; however, not Art. 9.

I would say that if not specified otherwise, it is inferred that this, like most infractions, is penalized when discovered, when it happens, etc. I think the important part is what is not said:

Penalized if/when the 5th player returns to the court.

[Illini_Ref]

I'm going with tjones on this one.

It says that ALL players must return at the same time not FIVE players.

The case play has the T called when the slacker player enters the court.

[BillyMac]

I'm getting really confused trying to follow this thread on two different forums. I've been tempted to do this, and I may have even done it, but I'm not going to even think about doing it again.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

It says that ALL players must return at the same time not FIVE players.

10-1-9: A team shall not fail to have all players return to the court...........


3-1-1: Each team consists of five players..........




If five don't return, they ain't all there.

[Illini_Ref]

Now don't just post part of 3-1-1. Read the "Note" below the section.

tjones' point is this. You cannot discover that all eligible players didn't return to the floor until one comes in late. To do so would be guessing on who is injured, sick, has a uniform problem, blood problem, etc. If you call a technical because a kid is puking on the bench and didn't come out of a timeout, I think you are wrong. Now if he pukes, then runs in after the throw-in, whack him.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by just another ref

10-1-9: A team shall not fail to have all players return to the court...........


3-1-1: Each team consists of five players..........




If five don't return, they ain't all there.

A team doesn't always consits of five players though, that's the point that myself and tjones is getting at. A team can play (after the start of the game) with four if they wish, unless there is a rule I don't know about.

-Josh

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jdmara

A team doesn't always consits of five players though, that's the point that myself and tjones is getting at. A team can play (after the start of the game) with four if they wish, unless there is a rule I don't know about.

-Josh

A team can play with four only if that is all they have available. There is no indication that this is true in the case at hand.

[Back In The Saddle]

Yes, under "extraordinary" circumstances a team may play with four. However, that is reading something into the rule and/or case that isn't specified.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by jdmara

A team doesn't always consits of five players though, that's the point that myself and tjones is getting at. A team can play (after the start of the game) with four if they wish, unless there is a rule I don't know about.

-Josh

Just to clarify: a team may not play with less than five if they have five players available. A team may not choose to play with less than five.

That said, if a coach tells you only four of his players are available to play (players could be unavailable for a variety of reasons we don't have the authority to rule on), then you would continue the game with less than five on the court.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

If you call a technical because a kid is puking on the bench and didn't come out of a timeout, I think you are wrong. Now if he pukes, then runs in after the throw-in, whack him.

NFHS 10-3-4-PENALTY EXCEPTION: If said player pukes on the shoes of the head coach, no technical foul will be charged for this specific act.

[Illini_Ref]

In reference to the situation, please assume the following:
The officials should have, but did not, check to see if the coach had five available players. The officials should not have, but did, put the ball in play without checking.

Now the question remains. Do you stop play and assess a technical while only four are on the floor? Say you do and then find out that the coach's only available player became ill during the timeout and is not available now. Now you have to say you take back the 'T". That just doesn't flow, does it?

I say that when the fifth returns, then you can "discover" that all available players didn't return at the same time and you can whack him then. Actually, by rule, assuming that the fifth just forgot he was still in the game and didn't return, he could never return without penalty, could he????? Now, if he became unavailable because he had to change a bloody uniform and could not before the TO ended, I say he could return at the next opportunity to "sub in".

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

In reference to the situation, please assume the following:
The officials should have, but did not, check to see if the coach had five available players. The officials should not have, but did, put the ball in play without checking.

Now the question remains. Do you stop play and assess a technical while only four are on the floor? Say you do and then find out that the coach's only available player became ill during the timeout and is not available now. Now you have to say you take back the 'T". That just doesn't flow, does it?

I say that when the fifth returns, then you can "discover" that all available players didn't return at the same time and you can whack him then. Actually, by rule, assuming that the fifth just forgot he was still in the game and didn't return, he could never return without penalty, could he????? Now, if he became unavailable because he had to change a bloody uniform and could not before the TO ended, I say he could return at the next opportunity to "sub in".

Stop the game. Inform the coach that you are assessing a T for not having 5 return to the court.

If he tells you he doesn't have five available players, then just don't assess the T. This isn't likely to happen.

Again, the T is not for the 5th player returning, it's for the 5th player not returning with the others.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Stop the game. Inform the coach that you are assessing a T for not having 5 return to the court.

If he tells you he doesn't have five available players, then just don't assess the T. This isn't likely to happen.

Again, the T is not for the 5th player returning, it's for the 5th player not returning with the others.

This is what I would do.

And, I agree with whoever said that the rule SHOULD BE that the team just continues to play with 4, but that's not what the rule IS..

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

You cannot discover that all eligible players didn't return to the floor until one comes in late. To do so would be guessing on who is injured, sick, has a uniform problem, blood problem, etc. If you call a technical because a kid is puking on the bench and didn't come out of a timeout, I think you are wrong. Now if he pukes, then runs in after the throw-in, whack him.

I can't? I think I can, because I can see when a team has just 4 players.

As I read this, it seems that you're trying to penalize the wrong infraction. By waiting until a player enters late, you're trying to penalize that player for returning late.

But the rule specifies penalizing the team for failing to return to together. That team technical foul is NOT charged to the player who returned late.

So if 4 are on the floor, I don't need to know which player is returning late or why. The team has committed an infraction by failing to return as a team, regardless of the reason.

If there's an issue such as illness or injury, we deal with that by following the rules concerning time-outs and substitutions, not by suspending other rules about returning to the floor.

[Illini_Ref]

I understand what you are saying. I just think that you can never recognize that all 5 AVAILABLE players returned. To do so would make you clairvoyant. You may be able to make an assumption, but nothing else.

I know what the rule is. However, it also doesn't say that FIVE players have to return to the floor.