Time-out, 4 return, when can 5th return?

[tjones1]

I know this probably shouldn't happen if we are all counting before making the ball live; however...

Following a time-out, only 4 players from Team A return. The ball becomes live. According to 10.1.9, if the 5th player returns Team A is charged with a Team Technical Foul for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission.

Here's the question:

When can the 5th player legally return without penalty?

Can the player return during a dead ball, i.e. after a made basket? I say no.

Or does the player have to wait until the next opportunity to "substitute" (even though they are already a player)? I say yes.

I have read this interp from 2007-2008 and note the 'COMMENT' as to why I stated it probably should never happen. However, it doesn't say anything as to when, if any, the player may legally return.

SITUATION 12: Following a (a) charged time-out; or (b) a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both teams, A5 goes to the bench and remains there mistakenly believing he/she has been replaced by a substitute. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return, and he/she sprints onto the court and catches up with play. RULING: In (a), the officials shall stop play and assess a team technical foul for not having all players return to the court at approximately the same time after a time-out. The technical foul counts toward the team-foul count. In (b), the officials may permit play to continue without penalty. A5's return to the court was not deceitful, nor did it provide A5 an unfair positioning advantage on the court. COMMENT: Even though neither situation provided A5 or Team A with an advantage, teams are expected to return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out. The officials should have also followed the prescribed mechanics and counted the number of players on the court, ensuring each team has the legal number of players. (10-1-9; 10-3-3)

Your thoughts?

[Back In The Saddle]

Good question. My knee jerk reaction is to say the fifth player must wait until the next opportunity to sub. However, one way of reading the (b) case is that the player may return at any time as long as his/her return is not deceitful nor does it provide him/her an advantage.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Good question. My knee jerk reaction is to say the fifth player must wait until the next opportunity to sub.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

However, one way of reading the (b) case is that the player may return at any time as long as his/her return is not deceitful nor does it provide him/her an advantage.

Agree..... however, I'm refering to the (a) case.

[just another ref]

Never thought about this before, but the way the rule reads the 5th player cannot return without penalty at all. The technical foul is for the failure of all players to return at the same time, not for one or more players return at the wrong time. The way I read it, the technical should be assessed when the officials realize the team has only 4 on the floor, whether the 5th player actually returns or not.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Never thought about this before, but the way the rule reads the 5th player cannot return without penalty at all. The technical foul is for the failure of all players to return at the same time, not for one or more players return at the wrong time. The way I read it, the technical should be assessed when the officials realize the team has only 4 on the floor, whether the 5th player actually returns or not.

Correct.

DELAYING RETURN FOLLOWING TIME-OUT
10.1.9 SITUATION: Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their
coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will
resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1
attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to
B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass. RULING: A technical foul
is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court
at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is
true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once
a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tjones1

I know this probably shouldn't happen if we are all counting before making the ball live; however...

Following a time-out, only 4 players from Team A return. The ball becomes live. According to 10.1.9, if the 5th player returns Team A is charged with a Team Technical Foul for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission.

Here's the question:

When can the 5th player legally return without penalty?

The 5th player returns during the T.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Agree..... however, I'm refering to the (a) case.

This is what happens when I reply to posts here when I should be sleeping instead.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

DELAYING RETURN FOLLOWING TIME-OUT
10.1.9 SITUATION: Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their
coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will
resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass. RULING: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Never thought about this before, but the way the rule reads the 5th player cannot return without penalty at all. The technical foul is for the failure of all players to return at the same time, not for one or more players return at the wrong time. The way I read it, the technical should be assessed when the officials realize the team has only 4 on the floor, whether the 5th player actually returns or not.

I disagree that B should be charged a T once the official(s) realize they only have 4 players. It's a disadvantage to play with 4 players so let them be at the disadvantage they put themselves in. I believe the T should be charged once B5 enters the court. If they want to wait to "sub" the 5 player in, let them do that. JMO

-Josh

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jdmara

I disagree that B should be charged a T once the official(s) realize they only have 4 players. It's a disadvantage to play with 4 players so let them be at the disadvantage they put themselves in. I believe the T should be charged once B5 enters the court. If they want to wait to "sub" the 5 player in, let them do that. JMO

-Josh

Your opinion is logical, but not supported by rule.

[tjones1]

Not sure I agree it's a technical foul immediately once the officials notice there are only 4 players. I think once the 5th returns that's when you can say that they all didn't return at approximately the same time. Without the 5th returning, who is to say that they didn't all return at the same time? Following the time-out, maybe they only had 4 players available to play. How are we to know? If it's charged immediately once the officials notice there are only 4 players, why did they offer the piece of information in red in the case play?

DELAYING RETURN FOLLOWING TIME-OUT
10.1.9 SITUATION: Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their
coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will
resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1
attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to
B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass. RULING: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time.

[just another ref]

In this particular case play, the return of B5 is what calls the matter to the officials' attention, but, nevertheless, the return is not what the technical foul is for. The interp quoted above specifies that this call is not based on advantage gained, but rather the simple fact that the players must all return at the same time.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Not sure I agree it's a technical foul immediately once the officials notice there are only 4 players. I think once the 5th returns that's when you can say that they all didn't return at approximately the same time. Without the 5th returning, who is to say that they didn't all return at the same time? Following the time-out, maybe they only had 4 players available to play. How are we to know? If it's charged immediately once the officials notice there are only 4 players, why did they offer the piece of information in red in the case play?

DELAYING RETURN FOLLOWING TIME-OUT
10.1.9 SITUATION: Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their
coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will
resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1
attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to
B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass. RULING: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time.

I'm going to say an immediate T once discovered.

Scenario.......... 'A' fails to have five players return to floor. With 30 seconds to go,they have a one point lead and are in a stall situation. A coach realizes they are missing a player and holds A5 from entering court as a T is forthcoming.

Assuming your logic regarding T, if I'm A coach, A5 is not going in, period.

[tjones1]

My point is how do we know until the 5th returns that all of them didn't return at the same time? There is nothing that prevents a team from playing with 4 players provided there isn't an available sub. Also, there isn't anything that prevents a team to return to 5 players if a player becomes available. If a player isn't available it's not up to us to question as to why they aren't available.... am I spinning or do you see what I'm getting at?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by tjones1

My point is how do we know until the 5th returns that all of them didn't return at the same time? There is nothing that prevents a team from playing with 4 players provided there isn't an available sub. Also, there isn't anything that prevents a team to return to 5 players if a player becomes available. If a player isn't available it's not up to us to question as to why they aren't available.... am I spinning or do you see what I'm getting at?

I see what you're getting at, but you're trying too hard. If a team is going to play with 4, but has players on the bench, we should be asking the coach for a 5th. If he then tells us none of them are available, fine, whatever.

But, that's not the case in this situation. Stop the game, call the T, if the coach wants to tell you nobody else was available you can decide whether or not to 'uncall' it.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by fullor30

I'm going to say an immediate T once discovered.

Scenario.......... 'A' fails to have five players return to floor. With 30 seconds to go,they have a one point lead and are in a stall situation. A coach realizes they are missing a player and holds A5 from entering court as a T is forthcoming.

Assuming your logic regarding T, if I'm A coach, A5 is not going in, period.

It notes that for Art. 7 in 10-1; however, not Art. 9.