blarge- POI or AP

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by cdaref

I can't explain it.

BUT I can say that it does not mandate that preliminary signals are irreversible. I think the only way to understand 4.19.8(C) is to think of the situation where both officials steadfastly insist their call is correct and there is no other way to resolve it. Otherwise it doesnt make sense.

What I refuse to do is read into an already whacky case play an even whackier new RULE: that preliminary signals now are mandatory and unchangable and there cannot be any deferring. I dont think 4.19.8(C) dictates that.

Well, it does dictate that in this ONE situation. It is not about insisting one is correct or who had a "better" look. Both officials saw what they felt was good enough to blow the whistle but they disagreed. For them to even come to differnet conclusions implies that it was a pretty close call. For one to change/defer means that one official effectively overrules the other. You also can't decide which happened first because it is the same act.

Like it or not, NCAA-M and NFHS say that once the officials signal with opposite calls in a block/charge, it is too late for either to change...with an exception for being in the restricted area.

[cdaref]

If that's true, then I am wrong. I can live with that. I will continue to pregame holding signals to stay out of the blarge nightmare. Because even if I am right, having two officials with two different calls and signals is a pregameable and avoidable situation.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by cdaref

If you are right and the two different signals means you have to have a double foul, then what do you do when someone calls out of bounds when its not their area and indicates Home ball when the primary indicates Visitor. I've seen that more (at lower levels with ball watching) than I've seen a blarge. If you have to have a double foul just because two officials gave different signals and you cant get together and figure it out, then what permits us to do it with out of bounds plays?

They don't write case plays for wreck league and middle school officials, which is the only time you should ever see two whistles on an OOB play (except maybe on a play in the corner), so this won't ever get addressed. That also means they aren't writing this for the two stubborn officials who refuse to get together to figure it out.

The narrow reading of this, in plain language, leads to the very simple conclusion that this is the only time prelims are binding. It doesn't "damage" any other rules, in that it has a very limited application as spelled out in the case play.

[cdaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

They don't write case plays for wreck league and middle school officials, which is the only time you should ever see two whistles on an OOB play (except maybe on a play in the corner), so this won't ever get addressed. That also means they aren't writing this for the two stubborn officials who refuse to get together to figure it out.

The narrow reading of this, in plain language, leads to the very simple conclusion that this is the only time prelims are binding. It doesn't "damage" any other rules, in that it has a very limited application as spelled out in the case play.

Snaq, come on. I saw it Friday. I'm waiting for my varsity game with my 3 man crew watching the JV officials work 2 man. That exact thing happened. Primary whistled and indicated one way, older official who had been away from officiating and just came back this year and is a bit rusty was ball watching and indicated the other direction. Yes, we talked about it at half time with them in the locker room.

[cdaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Then you're reading this case play differently than virtually every high school and college assigner and rules interpreter I've ever heard, read, or seen. If that was their intent, they'd have written the case play like the NCAAW, telling the officials to get together and make a decision.

This is the only case where the prelims become binding, and the reasoning is simple even if it is "suspect."

Snaq, if that is true, then I have to be wrong. I dont believe I am. I think my reading makes more sense. But I dont have your experience on this. I certainly cant say I have any idea how "virtually every high school and college assigner and rules interpreter" interprets this. If you and CR and others say I'm wrong, what choice do I have but to concede. I've stated the way I read it and why, if I'm wrong I'm wrong. I cant challenge your guys' experience with how it is called across the country.

[cdaref]

I wonder what Nevada would say on this

[Adam]

Originally Posted by cdaref

Snaq, come on. I saw it Friday. I'm waiting for my varsity game with my 3 man crew watching the JV officials work 2 man. That exact thing happened. Primary whistled and indicated one way, older official who had been away from officiating and just came back this year and is a bit rusty was ball watching and indicated the other direction. Yes, we talked about it at half time with them in the locker room.

That's exactly my point, though. You should never see it even in a JV game. The only reason you did was because the rusty one lost his head for a moment. Blarges happen in college with very good officials, they happen in HS varsity games with very good officials. I know officials who have confessed to blarges who work championship games. I would venture to guess you'll never see good HS varsity officials have a double whistle on a boundary line. I'd bet money you'll never see it in college.

I've never had one, but I've been lucky. One of my first varsity games in CO I hit the whistle and went straight for the charge. My partner had a whistle and held his prelim, but he had a block (we talked later). It was backcourt in transition, I was C and he was new T.

Last season in a 3-man JV game, I had a PC from C. I turned to report it and noticed the L had vacated so I moved to administer the throwin. He took C and went downcourt. At the next quarter, the other official informed us that we had both called and reported the foul without knowing it.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by cdaref

Snaq, if that is true, then I have to be wrong. I dont believe I am. I think my reading makes more sense. But I dont have your experience on this. I certainly cant say I have any idea how "virtually every high school and college assigner and rules interpreter" interprets this. If you and CR and others say I'm wrong, what choice do I have but to concede. I've stated the way I read it and why, if I'm wrong I'm wrong. I cant challenge your guys' experience with how it is called across the country.

Opposing block/charge prelims is a specific exception in the rule book, just like there are specific exceptions for backcourt violations on throws-in.

[cdaref]

I'm going to see what my commish has to say on this one. I have a funny feeling he will say: "get together, it cant be both so make one call not some cheesy double foul, and then figure out which one of you two knuckleheads should have held his preliminary signal and dont do that again." But then again, he's a common sense guy

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by cdaref

I'm going to see what my commish has to say on this one. I have a funny feeling he will say: "get together, it cant be both so make one call not some cheesy double foul, and then figure out which one of you two knuckleheads should have held his preliminary signal and dont do that again." But then again, he's a common sense guy

Rec League commish: "pick one foul and go with it"

HS or college supervisor: "report the blarge and never let it happen again"

[Adam]

Originally Posted by cdaref

Snaq, if that is true, then I have to be wrong. I dont believe I am. I think my reading makes more sense. But I dont have your experience on this. I certainly cant say I have any idea how "virtually every high school and college assigner and rules interpreter" interprets this. If you and CR and others say I'm wrong, what choice do I have but to concede. I've stated the way I read it and why, if I'm wrong I'm wrong. I cant challenge your guys' experience with how it is called across the country.

I put a caveat in there. "That I've heard, read, or seen." It says nothing of the depth of my experience.

[cdaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I put a caveat in there. "That I've heard, read, or seen." It says nothing of the depth of my experience.

Fair enough.

[just another ref]

Situation: A makes a drive to the basket, jumps and releases the shot. Two whistles sound. Two fists go up. L appears to make the pc signal. C appears to make the block signal. C and L make brief eye contact. C reports the foul and they line up to shoot.

Coach B: But, wait! What did he call?

Nearest official: (shrugs) Nothing, I guess.


end of story

[M&M Guy]

You skipped part of the story:

Originally Posted by just another ref

Situation: A makes a drive to the basket, jumps and releases the shot. Two whistles sound. Two fists go up. L appears to make the pc signal. C appears to make the block signal. C and L make brief eye contact. C reports the foul and they line up to shoot.

Coach B: But, wait! What did he call?

Nearest official: (shrugs) Nothing, I guess.

Coach B: But I saw the other official call a PC! Can you bring him/her over here so I can ask?

Nearest official: No, we're going to shoot FT's now.

Coach B: Are you saying they did not signal a PC?

Nearest official: I didn't see it.

Later on, the tape clearly shows the L giving the PC signal. As it turns out, the player from A that drove the lane would've fouled out on that play, and that same player makes the game-winning shot a few moments later. Assignor calls both officials and asks first why there were 2 different calls, and second, why did you not report 2 fouls, like the rule states?

So, not quite end of story

[Camron Rust]

The big difference between the blarge and all OTHER conflicting opinions or "calls" is that the others have a clearly defined sole responsibility (line coverage), the two calls are not different opinions of the same contact, or one official has a call and the other has a no-call. All of these are easily resolved by defering to the official who has sole responsibility for the line or determining which of the two acts occurred first. As for the blarge, there are primaries and secondaries involved (even double coverage areas), not exclusive areas. The positions at which they occur can be in a spot where it could be considered either official's primary. Defering to one official over the other has about a 50% chance of being right.