Closely Guarded Dilemma

[Back In The Saddle]

You seem to have overlooked a rather basic rule:

SECTION 23 GUARDING
ART. 1 . . . Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.

This section defines regular old guarding, article 2 further defines legal guarding position. Article 1, regular old guarding, plus a distance restriction, clearly is sufficient for a closely guarded count. Even without the further requirements of LGP. Also, as the basis for LGP, regular old guarding cannot be disregarded. In other words, path still matters to LGP because without path you are not even guarding, let alone have LGP.

Consider:

c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

This is one of the extra protections afforded the guard by obtaining LGP. What "position" is it that the guard is moving to maintain? It is a position in the opponents path. That is the fundamental basis for guarding.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Isn't this fun?

No, of course not. There's no yelling and name-calling.

I'll have to admit I've never considered these ideas when thinking about closely-guarded. Perhaps it's because my focus is in NCAA-W, where the closely-guarded count is only on a held ball, and there is no "path" to consider.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

This is one of the extra protections afforded the guard by obtaining LGP. What "position" is it that the guard is moving to maintain? It is a position in the opponents path. That is the fundamental basis for guarding.

So the only time you would have a count is when the guard is in front of (or trying to stay in front of) the direction the opponent is moving? So how do you justify a count in the case where B1 is in between A1 and the basket, while A1 dribbling "east/west"? A1's "path", if taken literally, is the direction they're moving, and B1 was never in front of that direction. (Or are you going to add another term not mentioned or defined in the rules: "assumed path"? )

Fwiw, I think the mention of the word path in the guarding definition was meant to dissuade the very action mentioned in the OP - simply following or shadowing a dribbler without trying to hinder their direction for the sole purpose of getting a 5-sec. violation. For example, to obtain LGP there is no mention of being in the path. We all know LGP can be obtained by the defender setting up behind the offensive player, such as in the post. What if that post player dribbles away from the basket to create space, but the defender moves with them - the defender is obviously not in the path, but yet we would continue the count when the defender stays within 6 feet. Or are you going to use that undefined term of "assumed path", since you would "assume" A1 was going to move towards the basket and B1 was in that "assumed" path, not the "actual" path? And what rules basis do you use to determine "intent" of a path?

Also, there is a specific mention in the rules that the count stops once the dribbler gets head and shoulders past the defender on a drive to the basket. Why isn't the count stopped if the same thing happens in all other dribbling and guarding situations?

I understand the phrase "in the path" is used in the definition of guarding, but I'm not sure we should get too literal in it's use without additional case plays or guidance.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Also, there is a specific mention in the rules that the count stops once the dribbler gets head and shoulders past the defender on a drive to the basket. Why isn't the count stopped if the same thing happens in all other dribbling and guarding situations?

I understand the phrase "in the path" is used in the definition of guarding, but I'm not sure we should get too literal in it's use without additional case plays or guidance.

The rule does not state direction ie on a drive to the basket. The rule states :

A closely guarded count shall be terminated when the offensive player in control of the ball gets his/her head and shoulder past the defensive player." Nothing about direction or PATH or any other words

Also once as Situation 9.10.1.C says once LGP has been established, movemnet does not matter, so the count starts the second offensive is facing defender who has his/her 2 feet planted, ans is within the 6 foot circle. They could dance and go any direction the count continues as long as the offensive player and defender remain with 6 feet and the LGP requirement spelt out in 9.10.1C has been initially obtained. (will not talk about defender 2 taking over)

Please see previous thread

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

The rule does not state direction ie on a drive to the basket. The rule states :

A closely guarded count shall be terminated when the offensive player in control of the ball gets his/her head and shoulder past the defensive player." Nothing about direction or PATH

Well, crap, you're right - there goes one of my arguments. Maybe I should just stay out of this. Well, ok, maybe not.

Does this section then provide the basis for not counting in the OP? Since the defender trailed the dribbler, was the dribbler's head and shoulders past the defender, and thus the count ends?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Well, crap, you're right - there goes one of my arguments. Maybe I should just stay out of this. Well, ok, maybe not.

Does this section then provide the basis for not counting in the OP? Since the defender trailed the dribbler, was the dribbler's head and shoulders past the defender, and thus the count ends?

Well, I think "on a drive to the basket" is clearly the intent of the rule, otherwise all a dribbler would have to do to end the count would be start heading towards the division line.

If I'm defending a dribbler, and he's heading towards a sideline or the division line, I'm likely to let him and just shadow him that direction.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Well, I think "on a drive to the basket" is clearly the intent of the rule, otherwise all a dribbler would have to do to end the count would be start heading towards the division line.

And if they manage to get more than 6 feet away from the defender, they would be successful in stopping the count.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

And if they manage to get more than 6 feet away from the defender, they would be successful in stopping the count.

Thank you Captain Obvious.

there wasn't nearly enough name calling here

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Well, I think "on a drive to the basket" is clearly the intent of the rule, otherwise all a dribbler would have to do to end the count would be start heading towards the division line.

If I'm defending a dribbler, and he's heading towards a sideline or the division line, I'm likely to let him and just shadow him that direction.

While that may be the primary intent, I don't think it is the only intent.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

While that may be the primary intent, I don't think it is the only intent.

I'll agree there are other situations, but I think the large majority of them involve at least advancing the ball towards the basket.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

The rule does not state direction ie on a drive to the basket. The rule states :

A closely guarded count shall be terminated when the offensive player in control of the ball gets his/her head and shoulder past the defensive player." Nothing about direction or PATH or any other words

How do you define getting the head/shoulder past the defender then? Your interpratation breaks down with this citation. Path is implied otherwise there would be no point to the rule...."past the defensive player" relative to what?

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Also once as Situation 9.10.1.C says once LGP has been established, movemnet does not matter, so the count starts the second offensive is facing defender who has his/her 2 feet planted, ans is within the 6 foot circle. They could dance and go any direction the count continues as long as the offensive player and defender remain with 6 feet and the LGP requirement spelt out in 9.10.1C has been initially obtained. (will not talk about defender 2 taking over)

Please see previous thread

Except that the rule you just cited says that the count shall stop....and it doesn't say anything about losing LGP.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

No, of course not. There's no yelling and name-calling.

I'll have to admit I've never considered these ideas when thinking about closely-guarded. Perhaps it's because my focus is in NCAA-W, where the closely-guarded count is only on a held ball, and there is no "path" to consider.



So the only time you would have a count is when the guard is in front of (or trying to stay in front of) the direction the opponent is moving? So how do you justify a count in the case where B1 is in between A1 and the basket, while A1 dribbling "east/west"? A1's "path", if taken literally, is the direction they're moving, and B1 was never in front of that direction. (Or are you going to add another term not mentioned or defined in the rules: "assumed path"? )

Fwiw, I think the mention of the word path in the guarding definition was meant to dissuade the very action mentioned in the OP - simply following or shadowing a dribbler without trying to hinder their direction for the sole purpose of getting a 5-sec. violation. For example, to obtain LGP there is no mention of being in the path. We all know LGP can be obtained by the defender setting up behind the offensive player, such as in the post. What if that post player dribbles away from the basket to create space, but the defender moves with them - the defender is obviously not in the path, but yet we would continue the count when the defender stays within 6 feet. Or are you going to use that undefined term of "assumed path", since you would "assume" A1 was going to move towards the basket and B1 was in that "assumed" path, not the "actual" path? And what rules basis do you use to determine "intent" of a path?

Also, there is a specific mention in the rules that the count stops once the dribbler gets head and shoulders past the defender on a drive to the basket. Why isn't the count stopped if the same thing happens in all other dribbling and guarding situations?

I understand the phrase "in the path" is used in the definition of guarding, but I'm not sure we should get too literal in it's use without additional case plays or guidance.

I guess I could yell a bit and call you some names, if that would help you feel like it's the good old days.

The notion of what "in the path" really means is problematic. We've debated it ad nauseum in the past. Some hold it means between the offensive player and the basket. Some hold that it is relative to the direction the offensive player is moving. Thus far the NFHS (also AFAIK the NCAA, NBA, nor FIBA) has not felt the need to further define it. That's probably okay. In practice it turns out to be more of an "I know it when I see it" thing. We pretty readily recognize situations where we should have a count. (Although it appears there may be some regional variance in how we apply closely guarded to post play)

But what would the summer lull be without discussions like this.

For discussion purposes, I'm liking Snaq's definition: "I think the path can be defined one of two ways: the general direction between the player and where he could reasonably be expected to want the ball, and the direction he is obviously moving."

Generally if the offense is trying to advance the ball, dribbling east-west is only a tactic to shift the defense and locate or create an opening to advance the ball. But good defense dictates that the guard remain between the dribbler and the basket, otherwise the dribbler may find a lane for a layup. Since an uncontested layup is the highest percentage shot, you have to consider the direct line from the dribbler to the basket the "path" he would most like to take. Depending on what the offense is trying to do, there are other "path"s that could/should legitimately be defended too. OTOH, there are places that it makes no sense for the defender to be, even though the supposed guard is within six feet. Generally speaking, behind the dribbler is one of those places.

As a hueristic, I think you can pretty reliably ask yourself, "Is the defender really guarding the offensive player?" If so, then he most likely is using his position on the floor to hinder or disrupt what the offensive player would like to do, and is therefore in the offensive player's path.

As for "head and shoulders," the rule makes no mention of "on a drive to the basket". From NFHS 4-10: "A closely guarded count shall be terminated when the offensive player in control of the ball gets his/her head and shoulders past the defensive player." However, a drive to the basket is when we normally apply this rule. And it certainly implies a much more precise spatial relationship between the dribbler and defender than merely "in the path".

You may be right about why the "in the path" language was added. I wasn't yet reffing when the closely guarded rule was added. I'm only passingly familiar with the "lack of action" rule that it replaced. I do know that it required the offense to move the ball toward the basket (or at least accross the 28 foot marks) under certain conditions. But, as with all "policy decisions" there are intended and unintended consequences.

The intended ones, obviously, have to do with forcing the offense to act, keeping the game from getting boring, but more importantly maintaining the balance between offense and defense by ensuring the defense has the opportunity to play defense. I think it's worked pretty well. If the offense is stalling, and the defense wants to force the issue, all they have to do is come out and "get a count." Pretty universally the offense will begin to move the ball in some fashion, and the defense has an opportunity.

The unintended consequences, well they're not so bad. As you mentioned, what if the post player dribbles out and the defender follows. The count on this play...well, I'm not sure the rules committee exactly went looking for that. After all, a player dribbling the ball within the arc already gives the defense the opportunity to play D. But, by rule, we have a count. Such is life. And hey, the fact that there is a rule that is regularly enforced just encourages a style of play that continually moves the ball and forces the action.

Overall, I think you can't go too far wrong if you consider the purpose of the closely guarded rule when you're making decisions about its application. I'm not suggesting we ever ignore the rule, only that it be applied most rigorously when its intent is most imperative. If the offense is moving the ball and forcing the action, we should be slow to start a count. If the offense is doing something a little different, like running out the clock at the end of the game, as long as the defense still has the opportunity to play defense (and they want to), the intent of the rule is being met and we should be reluctant to begin a count. When the offense is withholding the ball from play, denying the defense a chance to obtain the ball by simply not playing basketball, that's when the closely guarded rule is a great tool to get the offense back to playing the game.

Those who suggest that we're penalizing the defense by not starting an immediate count...who suggest a five second count is the defense's "reward" for playing good defense...well, I disagree. The intent of the rule is not to "give" the defense anything except the opportunity to play defense, to obtain the ball through their own efforts. Good defense is its own reward.

As always, my just $0.02

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

As always, my just $0.02

Hey, even with the down economy, I'd say that was worth more than $0.02...maybe as much as $0.04.

Nicely said.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Those who suggest that we're penalizing the defense by not starting an immediate count...who suggest a five second count is the defense's "reward" for playing good defense...well, I disagree. The intent of the rule is not to "give" the defense anything except the opportunity to play defense, to obtain the ball through their own efforts. Good defense is its own reward.

As always, my just $0.02

As I am the one who brought the whole "reward" concept into this discussion, I'll admit it's a poor choice of words. I will alter it, then.

Failure to properly apply the closely guarded rule leads to players playing tighter and tighter defense, which leads to rough play. If a defender thinks he's getting the count, he's less likely to get stupid and start slapping at the ball. Well, not all, as we've all had to call a foul on the defense just as our count was hitting 4 and the offensive player looked completely trapped.

Now, this has nothing to do, really, with the OP.