Multiple Foul ?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I have seen pictures of games played with basketballs that were secured with laces.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.: Obviously, somebody cropped you out of the photo. I know that Dr. Naismith, or, "Jimmy", as you called him, was your regular partner, since, back then, you were the only two people, in the whole world, who knew the rules.

[walter]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In other words, make no effort to follow the rules and do it the right way, just take the easy way out and ignore one of the fouls because you think that calling both would make the coaches mad.

Terrible advice.

A real official doesn't care what the coaches think.

The coach who is truly going to be upset is the one that you screw by allowing an opponent to foul one of his players without penalty. That's the guy who is going to be mad at you and rightly so.

I don't think that is what Brad wrote. I tend to agree with him. Brad is still saying we penalize both fouls but is saying, if at all possible, avoid the simultaneous foul ruling. In the OP, I don't care when the whistles sounded. My discussion with my partner(s) would have been , can we determine whether one foul happened before the other? If B's foul happened first, that gets penalized first and then we penalize the foul on A2 and resume from there. If A2's foul happened first and after the ball was in the air, penalize that foul first and then shoot the free throw for B's foul with players lined up. If there is absolutely no way to decide which happened first, then the simultaneous route is appropriate. I agree with Brad though, if you can determine the order do it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by walter

I don't think that is what Brad wrote. I tend to agree with him. Brad is still saying we penalize both fouls but is saying, if at all possible, avoid the simultaneous foul ruling. In the OP, I don't care when the whistles sounded. My discussion with my partner(s) would have been , can we determine whether one foul happened before the other? If B's foul happened first, that gets penalized first and then we penalize the foul on A2 and resume from there. If A2's foul happened first and after the ball was in the air, penalize that foul first and then shoot the free throw for B's foul with players lined up. If there is absolutely no way to decide which happened first, then the simultaneous route is appropriate. I agree with Brad though, if you can determine the order do it.

Walter,
You need to read the OP again, and review the rules for live ball and dead ball.
The foul against the shooter seems to occur AFTER he has released the ball, but before he has returned to the floor. If that is the case, then the ball will remain live until the try ends. Therefore, if the foul by the player near the basket also occurred AFTER the try was in flight, then it doesn't matter which one came first. They are both live ball fouls and MUST be penalized BY RULE. Under such circumstances there is no provision for penalizing one foul and ignoring the other. That would be setting aside the rules. Unfortunately, that is exactly what Brad recommends. Nowhere in his post does Brad recommend penalizing both fouls. He says that is "the worst option." Instead he says to pick only one, even when the officials can't tell which one happened first!

Originally Posted by Brad

If you can't figure out which one came first, then choose the most obvious foul and/or the one that makes the most sense.

He is completely wrong BY RULE.

The only way that just a single foul could be called on this play is if it was determined that A2's foul occurred BEFORE A1 released the ball on the try for goal. That would make the ball dead immediately and there wouldn't be a try or a foul against the airborne shooter. However, that was clearly not the case here according to the timing stated by the OP.

I don't know how the two officials would determine which foul came first if they were each watching the action in their areas of coverage. It would be impossible to say. Fortunately, I've already told you that it doesn't matter and that BY RULE both fouls are to be penalized. Furthermore, the simultaneous foul rule says that the fouls only have to take place at "approximately the same time." That certainly fits the OP's description.

[walter]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Walter,
You need to read the OP again, and review the rules for live ball and dead ball.
The foul against the shooter seems to occur AFTER he has released the ball, but before he has returned to the floor. If that is the case, then the ball will remain live until the try ends. Therefore, if the foul by the player near the basket also occurred AFTER the try was in flight, then it doesn't matter which one came first. They are both live ball fouls and MUST be penalized BY RULE. Under such circumstances there is no provision for penalizing one foul and ignoring the other. That would be setting aside the rules. Unfortunately, that is exactly what Brad recommends. Nowhere in his post does Brad recommend penalizing both fouls. He says that is "the worst option." Instead he says to pick only one, even when the officials can't tell which one happened first!



He is completely wrong BY RULE.

The only way that just a single foul could be called on this play is if it was determined that A2's foul occurred BEFORE A1 released the ball on the try for goal. That would make the ball dead immediately and there wouldn't be a try or a foul against the airborne shooter. However, that was clearly not the case here according to the timing stated by the OP.

I don't know how the two officials would determine which foul came first if they were each watching the action in their areas of coverage. It would be impossible to say. Fortunately, I've already told you that it doesn't matter and that BY RULE both fouls are to be penalized. Furthermore, the simultaneous foul rule says that the fouls only have to take place at "approximately the same time." That certainly fits the OP's description.

I have always agreed that both fouls need to be punished. I also agree that both fouls were live ball fouls. Maybe I am reading between the lines of Brad's post. I believe he is saying what I wrote. Get together, determine, if possible, which came first and penalize in the order they occurred. Now, if after the officials get together, they cannot determine whether one came before the other, then they have no choice and the simultaneous foul rule applies. Thankfully I have never been in that situation and hope I never am. I can only imagine the reaction of the Team A coach when I tell him there will be no free throw even though his/her shooter was still in the act when they got fouled. Chances are pretty good they won;t buy the that's the rule coach without some type of argument.

[Texas Aggie]

Calling a "simultaneous foul" here will do nothing other than make both coaches mad at you

Frankly, this is just dumb. For one thing, its clear what the rule is. For another, they aren't going to get mad unless you are TRYING to fit some situation into a rule that doesn't belong there, OR, are injecting yourself into the flow of the game for no good reason. Finally, who the hell cares? If you referee by trying to keep coaches from getting mad at you, you can't be very good.

In this case, a clear foul was called by one official, and the other one comes in and says he too has a foul. One official reports both fouls (I would suggest this for simplicity sakes. Probably the worst thing that will happen is one or both coaches has the palms up wanting an explanation, which is easy: "Coach, I had a foul against number __ and he had a foul at the same time against ___. By rule, this is a simultaneous foul and we go to the POI."

The coach(es) may ask about picking one or the other, but just say, "no, this is clearly covered in the rules."

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

Frankly, this is just dumb. For one thing, its clear what the rule is. For another, they aren't going to get mad unless you are TRYING to fit some situation into a rule that doesn't belong there, OR, are injecting yourself into the flow of the game for no good reason. Finally, who the hell cares? If you referee by trying to keep coaches from getting mad at you, you can't be very good.

In this case, a clear foul was called by one official, and the other one comes in and says he too has a foul. One official reports both fouls (I would suggest this for simplicity sakes. Probably the worst thing that will happen is one or both coaches has the palms up wanting an explanation, which is easy: "Coach, I had a foul against number __ and he had a foul at the same time against ___. By rule, this is a simultaneous foul and we go to the POI."

The coach(es) may ask about picking one or the other, but just say, "no, this is clearly covered in the rules."

However, you will be surprised at number of officials who will make any excuse to not call something out of the ordinary, even when it would be the proper call. I guess that it makes them too uncomfortable or that they fear a negative reaction from the coaches.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nowhere in his post does Brad recommend penalizing both fouls. He says that is "the worst option." Instead he says to pick only one, even when the officials can't tell which one happened first!

He never said pick only one, he said if you don't know which happened first, choose one. The difference is subtle, but you're smart enough to pick up on that. I took it to mean choose one to penalize first and penalize the other one after.
If you don't know, you're guessing no matter what, whether you go with a simultaneous or a regular false double.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

He never said pick only one, he said if you don't know which happened first, choose one. The difference is subtle, but you're smart enough to pick up on that. I took it to mean choose one to penalize first and penalize the other one after.
If you don't know, you're guessing no matter what, whether you go with a simultaneous or a regular false double.

I'm certainly willing to allow Brad to clarify, but everything in his post indicates that he wishes to only penalize one of the two fouls, and simply ignore the other.

Originally Posted by Brad

Figure out which one came first and go with that.

Calling a "simultaneous foul" here will do nothing other than make both coaches mad at you and completely confuse all players, coaches, fans, and anyone involved in the game. This is the worst option.

If you can't figure out which one came first, then choose the most obvious foul and/or the one that makes the most sense.

From your description, it sounds like the best option in your case is to count the basket and put A1 on the line for one free throw. This is the obvious call.

Don't make your job harder than it already is by complicating plays that don't need to be complicated.

So when Brad counts the goal and puts A1 on the line for one FT what is he doing about the foul committed by A2? The coach of Team B should certainly be asking about that. There is no mention of penalizing it afterwards as part of a false double foul.