NFHS Mechanics Question (3)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Did you miss the part where he said "the first of two?" And yes, we do that around here. If there's another free throw (or two), the T goes to the division line near the jump circle and then moves for the last free throw. No responsibilities are ignored -- unless you consider it vital we closely monitor a free throw where no rebound is contested...

Thanks Rich, you saved me some keystrokes.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

And in 2-man the Lead can glance over at the table/benches to pick up any subs or T-O requests that the Trail might have missed.
It's just that there is only one person to do this rather than two, so it's a little more difficult.

Kinda hard to glance at the benches or table when you have 7 bodies directly in your line of vision, which happens now in the new 2-man mechanic.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It seems to me that your argument is merely saying that everything can be seen better by more officials, which is basically stating the obvious, and so why don't we go to 4-man or 5-man like HS football?

Not saying that at all. I'm saying the new 2-man mechanic cuts outs a lot of vision. And the supposed pay-off of facilitating communication is not worth the trade-off, IMO.

Employing the new mechanic is no problem at all. I'm just failing to see the benefit.

[IREFU2]

IMO, the biggest thing is communication with coaches when you now in the trail table side.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

IMO, the biggest thing is communication with coaches when you now in the trail table side.

Are you turning away from the shooter so you can speak with the coaches?

[IREFU2]

Nope, but I am sure he will walk down beside the official for a quick question. I have responded to questions from coaches without taking my eyes of players.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Did you miss the part where he said "the first of two?" And yes, we do that around here. If there's another free throw (or two), the T goes to the division line near the jump circle and then moves for the last free throw. No responsibilities are ignored -- unless you consider it vital we closely monitor a free throw where no rebound is contested...

Nope, didn't miss that at all. In fact, people shirking their duties during the first FT is one of my biggest pet peeves.

It seems that these folks feel that they are entitled to take a break and go have a chat and a cup of coffee with one of the coaches because they've done their job and it ended with the calling of the foul.

BTW just a couple of seasons ago the NCAA came out with a directive for the positioning of the LEAD during the first FT. They stated that he belonged in the same proper position as during the last FT. He shouldn't be standing along the lane just below the first lane space. He should be in proper position observing the players for fouls and violations. Furthermore, the author stated the people who didn't adhere to this wouldn't be working the NCAA tournament.

The attitude being displayed here by some posters that the officials can be anywhere they please and watching whatever they wish during the first FT because the chance that something which needs to be penalized is slim is way too cavalier for my taste. It also looks unprofessional.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Nope, but I am sure he will walk down beside the official for a quick question. I have responded to questions from coaches without taking my eyes of players.

How do you do that for the coach at the other end of the court?

IAABO wants the T at the division line on the first of two FTs. And also says the L should never be on the court.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Kinda hard to glance at the benches or table when you have 7 bodies directly in your line of vision, which happens now in the new 2-man mechanic.

-----

Not saying that at all. I'm saying the new 2-man mechanic cuts outs a lot of vision. And the supposed pay-off of facilitating communication is not worth the trade-off, IMO.

In one breath you admit that it is harder for two officials to look around and see everyone that they need to even prior to the administration of the FT, yet you agree with Rich and think that it is okay to have the third official wander away from his prescribed position and leave his TWO partners to handle those tasks despite your acknowledgment of their difficulty in doing so!

Hmmmmmmm...... with such an attitude do you even see the value in having that third official on the court? Do you think that he's only there to help out on certain plays or a select times? Is your idea of 3-man that it is basically 2-man with an extra helper who makes calls when he is needed, and that he isn't needed during dead ball periods or less active times such as FT administration?

I'm not surprised by Rich expressing such a sentiment because he predominately works 2-man.

The rest of us should remember that 3-man isn't supposed to be lazy 2-man.

PS How many times has FT administration been a POE in the past few years? Could it be because people aren't taking it seriously and think that it is time to take a rest?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

IAABO wants the T at the division line on the first of two FTs. And also says the L should never be on the court.

I guess that IAABO got this one half right. Their stance on the Lead must come from their leadership who mostly work college ball and have had this point stressed to them lately. I can't imagine why the principle would be different for the Trail. If the NCAA brass doesn't want the Lead out of position for the first FT, why would anyone think that it would be okay for the Trail or Center to be out of position for that FT attempt?

[IREFU2]

The same way you would in 3 person, wait until you get to that end of the court....LOL.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Nope, but I am sure he will walk down beside the official for a quick question. I have responded to questions from coaches without taking my eyes of players.

How do you do that for the coach at the other end of the court?

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The attitude being displayed here by some posters that the officials can be anywhere they please and watching whatever they wish during the first FT because the chance that something which needs to be penalized is slim is way to cavalier for my taste. It also looks unprofessional.

No, that's just your twisted interpretation. My supervisors don't have a problem with the trail in a 3-man crew addressing the coach in the backcourt during the 1st of 2 free throws as long as they are in position for the 2nd. They also expect the lead to recognize if the Trail is addressing the coaches or table and ensure the Trail is ready before administering any "live" free throws (single throw; 1-and-1; 2nd of 2; 3rd of 3).

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In one breath you admit that it is harder for two officials to look around and see everyone that they need to even prior to the administration of the FT, yet you agree with Rich and think that it is okay to have the third official wander away from his prescribed position and leave his TWO partners to handle those tasks despite your acknowledgment of their difficulty in doing so!

Find me a direct quote where I said anything you just typed here. You will hard-pressed to do so. If you are going to para-phase my thoughts please so do so at least semi-accurately.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Hmmmmmmm...... with such an attitude do you even see the value in having that third official on the court? Do you think that he's only there to help out on certain plays or a select times? Is your idea of 3-man that it is basically 2-man with an extra helper who makes calls when he is needed, and that he isn't needed during dead ball periods or less active times such as FT administration?

I'm not surprised by Rich expressing such a sentiment because he predominately works 2-man.

The rest of us should remember that 3-man isn't supposed to be lazy 2-man.

PS How many times has FT administration been a POE in the past few years? Could it be because people aren't taking it seriously and think that it is time to take a rest?

WTF are you talking about? Mentally lazy would best describe what your just typed b/c you just pulled some sh!t out of thin air instead of actually taking the time to read and comprehend what has actually been written.

[IREFU2]

I cant ever remembering having to address a coach in the BC during a FT as the trail. But, I have address them in FC as the trail on several occations while in the trail position. This is both on the college and high school level. Just my 2 cents, not speaking for anyone else.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

I cant ever remembering having to address a coach in the BC during a FT as the trail. But, I have address them in FC as the trail on several occations while in the trail position. This is both on the college and high school level. Just my 2 cents, not speaking for anyone else.

So you've never had a coach in the backcourt who wanted to ask a question?

[IREFU2]

Not that I can think of right now. The last coach that had a question that was located in the back court, actually came into front court complaining and I stopped the game and walked him back to his box in the BC.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

My supervisors don't have a problem with the trail in a 3-man crew addressing the coach in the backcourt during the 1st of 2 free throws as long as they are in position for the 2nd. They also expect the lead to recognize if the Trail is addressing the coaches or table and ensure the Trail is ready before administering any "live" free throws (single throw; 1-and-1; 2nd of 2; 3rd of 3).

Where is Jurassic when I need him? This is fully deserving of a "Lah me."

Are you freaking kidding? Your supervisors are not only fools, they are doing you a great disservice by allowing you to instill such a bad habit in your game.

What they are stating by accepting that practice is that there is absolutely nothing for the Trail official in a 3-man crew to do prior to the ball becoming live on the final FT. In other words, they are sure that those two other guys out there can handle everything and anything perfectly. That's just BS and you know it. Every trainer on the planet stresses the importance of being vigilant during dead ball periods. I'm sure that you've heard that those are the times when the most problems arise.

Would your supervisor have a problem if the Trail official went over and got a drink of water during this time? How about if he left the court and went to the drinking fountain in the hallway? He's not doing any officiating then anyway.

Then to state that the Lead should wait until the Trail is finished talking with the coach and has returned to where he belongs prior to making the ball live is utter nonsense. That's just giving the coach a free time-out. If he's smart he can rest his players any time he wants just by asking a few silly questions. There's rule against a team preventing the ball from being made promptly live. Are your supers aware of that?

I guess that in southern VA the officials allow the coaches to hold up the game and resume it at the pace that they desire and when they are good and ready. This should work wonderfully for the slow-tempo team and annoy the heck out of the coach of the full-court pressing side. And I thought that a basketball game took so long because of all the media time-outs.

Thankfully, I officiated in northern VA. Lah-freakin'-me.