The odds of making it to D1

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by crew
its not magic, its hard work and determination and ability.

Hi ya tony. Good to see you again. I'll agree that it takes those things, but you need something more too. Either connections, or luck, or something. Because there are a lot of guys who work hard, have determination and ability (I'm among them, I think) who can't get a sniff of D1. I totally agree with what you wrote, but I think we need to be honest and say that sometimes (usually, in fact) those things aren't enough. You need a break. The right person has to see you in the right place and at the right time. Do you think that's a fair statement?

On a personal note, how are you holding up in the heat? It must be like an oven down there? What kind of ball have you been working this summer? Camps? You can email, if you don't want to respond on the board. Just wanted to catch up a little. Also, do you have your college schedule for the Fall yet? I'd love to know how that goes. Take care.

Chuck

[crew]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I'll agree that it takes those things, but you need something more too. Either connections, or luck, or something. Because there are a lot of guys who work hard, have determination and ability (I'm among them, I think) who can't get a sniff of D1. I totally agree with what you wrote, but I think we need to be honest and say that sometimes (usually, in fact) those things aren't enough. You need a break. The right person has to see you in the right place and at the right time. Do you think that's a fair statement?
Chuck

trying to move up the ranks is difficult. for some quicker than others. the first key to going to the next level is self evaluation. (this is straight from joe borgia-director of referee developement for the nba)
1. am i athletic
2. do i have solid clear mechanics

the next key to moving up is in camps, quality camps. when an official looks for a camp look at
1. is this a learning camp(not a meat market where all you do is work 2 games a day without classroom instrucution).
2. who is sponsoring the camp.
3. who is instructing/critiqueing the camp.
4. are there supervisors observing/evaluating officials.

when attending camps run hard every time down the court, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT, and when a critiquer says something you think is wrong, say this, "yes sir, i will do that." and when you are on his court do it. the guys that are hired to critique are there to see how well you listen to instruction. he is not going to go to the supervisor and say "he works the trail to far from the basket you shouldnt hire him." he is however going to say, "i told him to work closer ot he basket at trail and he did it, i only had to tell him once" or "i told him to work closer to the basket and he argued with me." now which is more likely to please a supewrvisor?

what i am getting at in this lengthy post is that everyone has the ability to create their own opportunity. for me i did not wait for the supervisors to come to the one caution light town of Grand Ridge Fl. to find me. i put myself into their line of vision and hoped that i had learned the qualities they were seeking.

[WestCoastRef]

Who said the statistics are better if you are female?? I know a great many FEMALE officials who are not getting hired in D-1 Conferences. It is very competitive out there, even if you are female. And if you are female you'd better be able to do more than walk and chew gum.

[ChuckElias]

I think that almost anyone will tell you that you have a better chance of getting to D1 if you are a female. Of course you know many women who aren't at the D1 level. I also know many men who aren't in Congress. Does that mean that my chances for election are any better or worse than those of a woman candidate? No. That doesn't prove anything. But I think it's fairly well-known that D1 Women's assignors want to hire female officials. That means a good female official has a better chance of landing that D1 spot than a good male official, all other things being equal.

Chuck

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by crew
the next key to moving up is in camps, quality camps. when an official looks for a camp look at
1. is this a learning camp(not a meat market where all you do is work 2 games a day without classroom instrucution).
2. who is sponsoring the camp.
3. who is instructing/critiqueing the camp.
4. are there supervisors observing/evaluating officials.

I think we're agreeing here, tony. Being good is a necessary first step. But you also have to be seen by the right people at the right time. You do this by choosing the right camp(s) to attend; which you've done successfully, and I have not

Chuck

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by WestCoastRef
Who said the statistics are better if you are female?? I know a great many FEMALE officials who are not getting hired in D-1 Conferences. It is very competitive out there, even if you are female. And if you are female you'd better be able to do more than walk and chew gum.

I'm quoting here, I have not had any experience in this area at all, but, what I've been told is that in women's, the chances of moving up are better for female refs. What I've been told is that any female ref who has the necessary qualities can move up to D-1. There simply aren't enough. We're talking about women's ball here. Of course, for an individual, this means getting qualified. Just being female isn't enough on its own, but for men the competition is much more fierce. Many, many male refs who are highly qualified will not move up, but there aren't enough women who can do the job, so anyone who can, may.

[BigDave]

Originally posted by stripes

The Big Sky camp.

BTW tony, I do know some who have made it to D1 in 5 years--on the men's side. Definitely the exception rather than the rule.

Who were the evaluators besides Marla? I'm good friends with C. Rastatter and B. Schofield. They're here in Tucson.

[stripes]

Originally posted by BigDave
Who were the evaluators besides Marla? I'm good friends with C. Rastatter and B. Schofield. They're here in Tucson.

Sco and Ras were both there. Others included Ray DalPogetto, Herb Dillion, Pete Waylett, John Weeks, Ruben Ramos, Bob McAllister, Brian Mikkelson, Gordon Overstreet and Verne Harris. I think that is everyone. Very good instruction.

[Tim Roden]

From what I was told there is an element of luck in making d1. Where you live, your gender, the need for officials. A lot of officials there now came in when NCAA went from 2 man to three man mechanics. There is currently a need for female officials in Womans basketball. So Woman will move up faster. There is always attrician due to retirement, and coaches no longer wanting to see certain officials and plain old fashion quitting. So good officials will always have a spot. But it is only the top 5% that even have a chance. I know a good official that didn't make it. I don't know why but he moved to Dallas so he would have a better chance next time.

[Jeremy Hohn]

Well I just got done talking to a buddy of mine that went to the Big 12 mens camp and he said he payed $600 for 6 20 minute halves. They only picked up one guy and it was apparent that the slot was already filled. Good investment? You tell me.....

[crew]

another thing is to not go to camps that are over your head or ability. take it easy, be patient and good things will come to good people. (im not saying your freind isnt good enough i am making a general statement)

[Ref42]

Just as a side note, was just at a camp with Ted Valentine as a speaker. He commented that there are about 1450 D1 Officials and during the season about 15% of the 1400 or so do 85% of the games. With this in mind, it tells you that once you have made it to D1 it doesn't guarantee you will work that many games. So just because a D1 supervisor puts on you on staff doesn't mean your'e working all the time or any time.

Now back to the original subject. I agree there is something true in everyone's posts, but lets be serious, there is so much more that goes into selection of someone than just referee skills and this goes for the D2 and D3. Many of these things you also can do nothing about immediately. I believe things like your

1. Looks - Todays D1 Mens officials are proto-typed. If you are 6'2"-6'6" with a good physique and run well you are one step ahead of the game. I'm sorry I know this for fact and saw a perfect example at a D1 camp this year. Now this is not to say the other guy won't get a look but the above gives you the edge over someone of the same referee caliber.

2 Where you live - Depending on what specific conference you are trying out for will always help determine if you will be picked up. If a supervisor can call you at a moments notice and you are in the range of skills of which he requires then you also have the edge over the next guy and sometimes the next guy may be better, but where he lives doesn't provide the supervisor the same oppurtunities.

3. What kind of job do you have - AVAILABILITY! Will always put you in a different category if you have the ability to referee. So officials who are self-employed, are salesman, or company exec's which control their own schedule are some examples of the official who may have the edge.

[crew]

this is absolutely correct!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JRutledge

To quote Johnny Gill, "There you go!!!"

There you go, Rutledge.

Everytime I make a remark about someone saying something stupid, you think I'm talking about you!

The comments posted in this thread would seem to correctly indicate that it is very difficult to move up into the D1 level. But you porbably wouldn't agree, so tell us how easy it is.

stripes, making D1 with less than 10 years experience is certainly the exception, not the rule. One example is Joe DeRosa. Joe worked high school varsity ball for 3 years before moving to D1. He worked D1 for only 3 years before getting picked up by the NBA. He's been in the NBA for about 15 years now and is one of the top 15 officials in the league. But I can't tell you if or how long he worked in lower levels before working HS varisty

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

There you go, Rutledge.

Everytime I make a remark about someone saying something stupid, you think I'm talking about you!

Tony,

You made a statement that not a single person made. You mischaracterized the comments of others (and if that includes myself, so be it) and you accused people of saying it was easy by simply giving an example or examples of people that have achieved that level. Whether it was me or anyone, you were wrong in your statements. I never heard anyone say it was easy. But you did lump in the HS comment and not a sole claimed that you just jumped from HS to college without any work or talent. Again that was a mischaracterization of what everyone was saying.

I think it is time for you to admit you were wrong. But that is just me. Then again, that is why this place is funny, you take me much more seriously than I take myself.

Peace