After the 1st half buzzer.

[RogersUmp]

Not my daughter...just apalled at what I saw and asked the coach about it after the game.

It was rough game and out of control - the coach agreed.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RogersUmp

Does anyone know the definition for flagrant?

The rulebook definition basically means any act that violent or savage in nature, or a technical foul that involves no contact which displays unacceptable conduct.

Peace

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by RogersUmp

Not my daughter...just apalled at what I saw and asked the coach about it after the game.

It was rough game and out of control - the coach agreed.

It's 11U girls. It's crap basketball to begin with. Why are you surprised that it was rough and out of control?

[RogersUmp]

Thanks JR

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The rulebook definition basically means any act that violent or savage in nature, or a technical foul that involves no contact which displays unacceptable conduct.

Originally Posted by RogersUmp

Thanks JR

That being said, it is still up to the officials (on that game) to make the decision. The fanboys in the stands or the biased coach opinions DO NOT matter.

[WreckRef]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

That being said, it is still up to the officials (on that game) to make the decision. The fanboys in the stands or the biased coach opinions DO NOT matter.

Agreed. It's up to the calling officials to decide what is flagrant, intentional, etc., no one else, even officials in the stands.

[bradfordwilkins]

Had the shooter came down from their attempt? Where was the ball (had it missed? been in flight towards a possible make?

[BillyMac]

An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul which neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position. Contact away from the ball or when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball or a player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, shall be intentional. Intentional fouls may or may not be premeditated and are not based solely on the severity of the act. A foul also shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent.

A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

[Nevadaref]

Clearly RogersUmp doesn't know the rules for basketball. He thinks that he does though. He also thinks that those responding here were giving him their opinions when in fact they were telling him what the rules say.

So, in an attempt to redress some ignorance I'm going to talk him through the play AND post the exact text of the appropriate NFHS rules.

Originally Posted by RogersUmp

After the 1st half buzzer.

---

I saw this at a 5th grade/11U girls game this last weekend. Player A1 brings the ball aross halfcourt and desperately tries to launch a shot before the clock runs out but her shot is clearly a second or two after the buzzer.

Let's start with the facts:
1. The period ends with the sounding of the horn, unless the ball is already in flight on a try for goal when the horn sounds.

"RULE 5, SECTION 6 BEGINNING, ENDING A QUARTER OR EXTRA PERIOD
ART. 1 . . . Each quarter or extra period begins when the ball first becomes live.
ART. 2 . . . Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired.
EXCEPTIONS:
1. If the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal, the quarter or extra period ends when the try or tap ends.
..."

2. In this case, since the ball was NOT released prior to the sounding of the horn the ball is dead, the quarter/period is over, and there is no try for goal. As there is no try for goal, there can't be an airborne shooter.

"RULE 6, SECTION 7 DEAD BALL
The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
...
ART. 6 . . . Time expires for a quarter or extra period (see exception a below).
...
EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight."

"RULE 4, SECTION 1 AIRBORNE SHOOTER
ART. 1 . . . An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try for a goal or has tapped the ball and has not returned to the floor.
ART. 2 . . . The airborne shooter is considered to be in the act of shooting."

Originally Posted by RogersUmp

In the act of shooting Player B1 hip-checks Player A1 into a heap on the floor. One official said he saw nothing and the other said it was after the buzzer, I have nothing.

3. As covered in point #2, there can't be an "act of shooting" in this case. You are simply incorrect about that. This action is NOTHING. Now let's discuss your "hip-check." Since the ball is now dead and the period is over BY RULE no player can commit a "common foul." Only fouls which an official deems intentional or flagrant can be charged, and those fouls must be assessed as technical fouls. The official who said that the action occurred "after the buzzer" and so he had nothing was 100% correct, if he deemed that the contact wasn't intentional or flagrant.


"RULE 4,
SECTION 19 FOUL
A foul is an infraction of the rules which is charged and is penalized.
ART. 1 . . . A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with
an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing
normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact
by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.
NOTE: Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or
flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter.
ART. 2 . . . A common foul is a personal foul which is neither flagrant nor
intentional nor committed against a player trying or tapping for a field goal nor a
part of a double, simultaneous or multiple foul.
ART. 3 . . . An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul which neutralizes
an opponent's obvious advantageous position. Contact away from the ball or
when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball or a player, specifically
designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, shall be intentional. Intentional
fouls may or may not be premeditated and are not based solely on the severity of
the act. A foul also shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player
causes excessive contact with an opponent.
ART. 4 . . . A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or
savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable
conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not
limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it
involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or
persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.
ART. 5 . . . A technical foul is:
a. A foul by a nonplayer.
b. A noncontact foul by a player.
c. An intentional or flagrant contact foul while the ball is dead, except a foul
by an airborne shooter.
d. A direct technical, charged to the head coach because of his/her actions or
for permitting a player to participate after having been disqualified.
e. An indirect technical, charged to the head coach as a result of a bench
technical foul being assessed to team bench personnel, or a technical foul
being assessed to a team member for dunking or grasping the ring during
pregame warm-up or at intermission.
..."

4-23-1
"...A player who extends an arm, shoulder,
hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs."

"RULE 10, SECTION 6 CONTACT
ART. 1 . . . A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress
of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s), or by
bending his/her body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics."

Originally Posted by RogersUmp

What is the correct call?

4. Under normal circumstances, it seems that, while certainly illegal action, a "hip-check" is classified by the NFHS rules as just a common foul. It certainly doesn't meet the definiton of a flagrant foul, and it is very doubtful that it should be considered an intentional foul, even under the circumstances you have described.

Originally Posted by RogersUmp

Do you consider ejecting B1 for unsportsman-like conduct?

5. Let's see. What's the NFHS definition of an unsporting foul?

"RULE 4, SECTION 19 FOUL
ART. 14 . . . An unsporting foul is a noncontact technical foul which consists
of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with
the spirit of fair play."

Nope, this was a contact situation, so that definition clearly doesn't fit. The only possible way to have an "ejection" (the NFHS term is disqualification) on the described play would be for "flagrant" conduct, and we have already addressed that.

Originally Posted by RogersUmp

Is there a foul if it's a) after the 1st half buzzer b)end of game?

6. Refer to previous note.

NOTE: Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or
flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter.

Originally Posted by RogersUmp

Not my daughter...just appalled at what I saw and asked the coach about it after the game.

It was rough game and out of control - the coach agreed.

This opinion and the agreement of the coach were based upon what? Your extensive rules knowledge? Did the coach explain the play to you as I just did above when you spoke after the game?

I suggest that both of you apologize to the officials the next time that you see them, and admit that they handled the play correctly. Then visit NFHS | National Federation of State High School Associations and order a basketball rules book, but most importantly, when it arrives, spend some serious time reading it.

While I fully understand that this was just a game amongst some 10 year-olds, I do find it appalling that you and this coach have the audacity to criticize the officiating given the complete lack of basketball knowledge that you have exhibited in your posts.

If you don't have any training in the avocation, then you should either sit there silently and observe or politely and positively cheer for the young girls who are playing. Doing anything else is illogical.

[WreckRef]

Pwned.

J/K. In all seriousness Nevada is correct. You shouldn't come to an officiating forum and criticize officials when you don't even know the rules. That was obvious by your response after someone told you contact after a dead ball is ignored unless intentional and flagrant.

Just my $.02.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

NOTE: Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or
flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter.

NOTE: Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or
flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter.

Nevada:

You have to stop holding your emotions all bottled up inside. You have to let them out and let us know how you really feel about this subject, .

MTD, Sr.

[grunewar]

Thanks for the post/research Nevada - a logical walk-through and explanantion of the situation and rules that helps many.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Clearly RogersUmp doesn't know the rules for basketball. He thinks that he does though. He also thinks that those responding here were giving him their opinions when in fact they were telling him what the rules say.

So, in an attempt to redress some ignorance I'm going to talk him through the play AND post the exact text of the appropriate NFHS rules.

Let's start with the facts:
1. The period ends with the sounding of the horn, unless the ball is already in flight on a try for goal when the horn sounds.

"RULE 5, SECTION 6 BEGINNING, ENDING A QUARTER OR EXTRA PERIOD
ART. 1 . . . Each quarter or extra period begins when the ball first becomes live.
ART. 2 . . . Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired.
EXCEPTIONS:
1. If the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal, the quarter or extra period ends when the try or tap ends.
..."

2. In this case, since the ball was NOT released prior to the sounding of the horn the ball is dead, the quarter/period is over, and there is no try for goal. As there is no try for goal, there can't be an airborne shooter.

"RULE 6, SECTION 7 DEAD BALL
The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
...
ART. 6 . . . Time expires for a quarter or extra period (see exception a below).
...
EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight."

"RULE 4, SECTION 1 AIRBORNE SHOOTER
ART. 1 . . . An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try for a goal or has tapped the ball and has not returned to the floor.
ART. 2 . . . The airborne shooter is considered to be in the act of shooting."



3. As covered in point #2, there can't be an "act of shooting" in this case. You are simply incorrect about that. This action is NOTHING. Now let's discuss your "hip-check." Since the ball is now dead and the period is over BY RULE no player can commit a "common foul." Only fouls which an official deems intentional or flagrant can be charged, and those fouls must be assessed as technical fouls. The official who said that the action occurred "after the buzzer" and so he had nothing was 100% correct, if he deemed that the contact wasn't intentional or flagrant.


"RULE 4,
SECTION 19 FOUL
A foul is an infraction of the rules which is charged and is penalized.
ART. 1 . . . A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with
an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing
normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact
by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.
NOTE: Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or
flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter.
ART. 2 . . . A common foul is a personal foul which is neither flagrant nor
intentional nor committed against a player trying or tapping for a field goal nor a
part of a double, simultaneous or multiple foul.
ART. 3 . . . An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul which neutralizes
an opponent's obvious advantageous position. Contact away from the ball or
when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball or a player, specifically
designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, shall be intentional. Intentional
fouls may or may not be premeditated and are not based solely on the severity of
the act. A foul also shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player
causes excessive contact with an opponent.
ART. 4 . . . A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or
savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable
conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not
limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it
involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or
persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.
ART. 5 . . . A technical foul is:
a. A foul by a nonplayer.
b. A noncontact foul by a player.
c. An intentional or flagrant contact foul while the ball is dead, except a foul
by an airborne shooter.
d. A direct technical, charged to the head coach because of his/her actions or
for permitting a player to participate after having been disqualified.
e. An indirect technical, charged to the head coach as a result of a bench
technical foul being assessed to team bench personnel, or a technical foul
being assessed to a team member for dunking or grasping the ring during
pregame warm-up or at intermission.
..."

4-23-1
"...A player who extends an arm, shoulder,
hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs."

"RULE 10, SECTION 6 CONTACT
ART. 1 . . . A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress
of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s), or by
bending his/her body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics."



4. Under normal circumstances, it seems that, while certainly illegal action, a "hip-check" is classified by the NFHS rules as just a common foul. It certainly doesn't meet the definiton of a flagrant foul, and it is very doubtful that it should be considered an intentional foul, even under the circumstances you have described.



5. Let's see. What's the NFHS definition of an unsporting foul?

"RULE 4, SECTION 19 FOUL
ART. 14 . . . An unsporting foul is a noncontact technical foul which consists
of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with
the spirit of fair play."

Nope, this was a contact situation, so that definition clearly doesn't fit. The only possible way to have an "ejection" (the NFHS term is disqualification) on the described play would be for "flagrant" conduct, and we have already addressed that.


6. Refer to previous note.

NOTE: Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or
flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter.



This opinion and the agreement of the coach were based upon what? Your extensive rules knowledge? Did the coach explain the play to you as I just did above when you spoke after the game?

I suggest that both of you apologize to the officials the next time that you see them, and admit that they handled the play correctly. Then visit NFHS | National Federation of State High School Associations and order a basketball rules book, but most importantly, when it arrives, spend some serious time reading it.

While I fully understand that this was just a game amongst some 10 year-olds, I do find it appalling that you and this coach have the audacity to criticize the officiating given the complete lack of basketball knowledge that you have exhibited in your posts.

If you don't have any training in the avocation, then you should either sit there silently and observe or politely and positively cheer for the young girls who are playing. Doing anything else is illogical.

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

Is that referee checking for the shoulder blades touching so he can do the fall count? Or is he checking the poor dude on the bottom to see if he's even alive???