3 crew-v- 2 crew

[Nevadaref]

I still say that the problem lies here:
"Each official working a TVC game in a three-man crew receives $60. With boys and girls varsity games on the same night, the home school pays six officials $360. Officials working in a two-man crew receive $65, but because just four officials would work the two games, it would cost schools only $260."

What group of officials would accept only $5 more to work the game 2-man?

These associations need to take a serious look at their fee structure: Saginaw Officials Association, the Midland Officials Association, the Heart of Michigan Officials Association and the Bay Metro Officials Association.

2-man is FAR more difficult and deserves a greater compensation difference than that. In fact, if the fee was $80 per official in the 2-man system, then the schools probably wouldn't be looking at this as a money saving option. The difference would be negligible. IMO these groups are suffering for their mistake of setting or allowing their 2-man fee to be set too low.

[ref2coach]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I still say that the problem lies here:

What group of officials would accept only $5 more to work the game 2-man?

These associations need to take a serious look at their fee structure: Saginaw Officials Association, the Midland Officials Association, the Heart of Michigan Officials Association and the Bay Metro Officials Association.

IMO these groups are suffering for their mistake of setting or allowing their 2-man fee to be set too low.

FWIW in our state, the officials associations do not set the fee, it is set by the State. The committee that votes to set the fees, 3 years at a time, is populated by ADs and Principles. there are no officials that have a vote.

[AKOFL]

Originally Posted by ref2coach

FWIW in our state, the officials associations do not set the fee, it is set by the State. The committee that votes to set the fees, 3 years at a time, is populated by ADs and Principles. there are no officials that have a vote.

Sounds like you are under control of the dark side. Use the force ref2. Most people don't appreciate what an official actually goes through unless they have call a game themselves. Get all thoes board members on the court and see how they feel after running a high level 2 crew game.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ref2coach

FWIW in our state, the officials associations do not set the fee, it is set by the State. The committee that votes to set the fees, 3 years at a time, is populated by ADs and Principles. there are no officials that have a vote.

Then the officials in your state need to get together and take a stand if they don't like the make-up of that committee or the fees that it sets.

I do like the idea of telling the committee members to get out there and work the games themselves!

[shishstripes]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

I agree Nevada.
Sometimes thing are bad before they get good. People suffer all the time if the reward is worth it. I started working three crew three years ago. My first games I was thinking "this is boring". The more I worked it however the better it got. You get more off ball coverage is an advantage I like. Pay is still a issue at State games for smaller schools. 1A and 2A is still two crew. I had the boys championship game and believe you me i was run preety hard. We still run 2 crew for C and JV games but most all our V games are three crew. I'm sure in time the rest of the world will come around and see the advantages outweigh the cost.

The strength of your partner didn't help that much either with such a big rivalry game. You do get more off the ball coverage and there certainly are some major advantages to 3-crew but if you hustle, work hard, work and communicate well with your partner you can call a good game too. Coming from a 2-crew specialist.

[AKOFL]

Originally Posted by shishstripes

The strength of your partner didn't help that much either with such a big rivalry game. You do get more off the ball coverage and there certainly are some major advantages to 3-crew but if you hustle, work hard, work and communicate well with your partner you can call a good game too. Coming from a 2-crew specialist.

Specialist? I'm sure you are special, just not in the way you are thinking.
Is the weather getting any warmer?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

2-man is FAR more difficult and deserves a greater compensation difference than that.

According to this logic, when 3 man crews first appeared at the high school level, the officials who had previously been working 2 man should have then taken a per-game pay cut. I'm guessing this did not happen.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

I had the boys championship game and believe you me i was run preety hard. .

Hey - was Grace Christian in it this year???

[AKOFL]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Hey - was Grace Christian in it this year???

They are 3A I believe and they didn't even make state. They were favored for regions and didn't get it done. I called the 3A regional at Grace.

[ref2coach]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Then the officials in your state need to get together and take a stand if they don't like the make-up of that committee or the fees that it sets.

I do like the idea of telling the committee members to get out there and work the games themselves!

No one has a vote except the Schools.

You say the officials need to get together and take a stand. Have you ever met a more independent, hard to lead, group of people than sports officials?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

They are 3A I believe and they didn't even make state. They were favored for regions and didn't get it done. I called the 3A regional at Grace.

Really. I thought they would be pretty good this year. I watched them a couple times last year when I was up there to do some games. I went to HS with their administrator and his son is the point guard - pretty good little point guard as I remember.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ref2coach

No one has a vote except the Schools.

You say the officials need to get together and take a stand. Have you ever met a more independent, hard to lead, group of people than sports officials?

I know officials that would take a pay cut just to improve their schedules.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Not elite, just a primadonna.


And therein lies the problem. If more organizations would simply quote the schools a flat game fee no matter how many officials are used, then this "money saving" idea would go away.

Just keep it simple and have the officials divide the fee equally. That way the schools have no valid reason to prefer only two officials.

Not a chance. I have no interest in spending the same amount of time, working just as hard, taking just as much grief, for 33% less money than if one of the other guys wasn't there. And, given the issues of the day, the flat fee the schools would be interested in would be the one equivalent to 2-person. So, we'd be taking a 33% pay cut. The "right" fee may not be directly proportional to the number of officials assigned, but it is also not unrelated.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

[/color]
You can characterize it that way if you wish, but I think that the reality of it was that with only a small number of officials in the area and they all belong to the same association, the schools didn't have a choice once the officials decided that it was time to go to three. They basically got told this is what we are going to do and if you don't like it, then you can find and provide your own officials.

That is assuming the officials organizations set their own terms. Here in Oregon (and I' bet we're not the only one), the state athletic organization establishes the fees. We can't ask the schools for a dime more.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Finally, I will add that I would consider a move to 3-man to be comparable to a raise. How big of a raise would depend upon how much of a cut it would take to get it introduced. Yet if you could get three at the same rate, then that would have to be considered a BIG raise. You are now only doing 2/3 of the work. So really if you drop your current per official game fee by anything less than 1/3, then you are actually gaining.

I've done enough of 3 to know that it is not only 2/3rd of the work. I'm still there for the same amount of time whether it is 2 or 3. I may sweat a little less but I have to be there and be focused for just as long.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

For example, if each ref is getting $50 to work 2-man, then tell the schools that you will do 3-man for $40 each. That's only a $10 cut per ref, and only a $20 increase for the schools, but when the added benefits of 3-man are thrown in and the realization of the increase in opportunites are acknowledged, it has to be a positive.

That would be about the limit of what I'd consider a resonable comprimise.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You could even get a $3 increase per year, per official and be back to what you were making in 2-man in only three seasons.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Disagree. With smaller primary coverage areas and less guessing on calls across the key, drives to basket, etc., there is MORE consistency in three person crews than in two person crews. JMO, of course.

Rocky,

Now with alot of the crews that I saw in this area the past year, you and I could do a much better job as a 2 'man crew than the 3 'man crew that was actually working the game.