Giving the fumble signal

[Indianaref]

Had a disagreement with another official on a play that happened earlier this year. It was on my mind yesterday, so I thought I would ask it here.

A1 is dribbling in her front court, ends her dribble, then fumbles the ball about 10 feet away. She starts out to retrieve the ball, then stops short of the ball believing that her next touch will be a violation. With the defense closing in, she decides to go ahead and pick up the ball. Of course, no whistle, the coach of Team B immediately complains, I give the fumble signal (I know that the fumble signal is not a proper NFHS mechanic, but I use it anyway). Later my P says that I should go ahead and give the fumble signal early (before she picks up the ball) so that everyone will know that you are on top of it, sort of like when an official gives the tip signal early when the ball goes into the back court.

My thoughts are to wait and let the play develop then give a signal after the ball is retrieved. To me it looks like you are not trying to coach the team.

[mbyron]

In that kind of situation, I wouldn't worry too much about being accused of "coaching." You're not telling the players what to do, you're reporting the status of the ball. In this regard, signalling "fumble" is in fact like signalling a tip on a potential BC violation.

I'm sort of curious what your "fumble" signal is. Is it like the "bobble" signal umpires use at 1B?

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I'm sort of curious what your "fumble" signal is. Is it like the "bobble" signal umpires use at 1B?

Not a baseball guy, but I believe it is the same. Two hands in front of body, palms facing skyward, alternating up and down. Sort of like holding Dolly Parton's.....well never mind.

[JugglingReferee]

This is also the bobble signal that officials use in the NFL.

[grunewar]

Is the "fumble" signal similar to the "hit to the head" signal in that it elaborates on what happened, is easily understood, and yet everyone knows it's not an approved/authorized signal?

[amusedofficial]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Isignalling a tip on a potential BC violation.
?

Whoa. Say, under NF rules, A has PC in front court. Ball passed, B1 tips to backcourt. Do you signal? Isn't it BC violation if caught in backcourt on fly but not if caught after bounce? What if U1 has been calling tips but R and U2 have not? Does one team get an advantage by being warned of tip? If you signal tip for backcourt, why not signal tip for OOB?

Deviation from approved mechanics is a prescription for disaster. By definition, using non-approved mechanics during play leads to inconsistency. There is absolutely nothing to gain, in terms of calling game, by signaling a no-call.

[Old_School]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

Whoa. Say, under NF rules, A has PC in front court. Ball passed, B1 tips to backcourt. Do you signal? Isn't it BC violation if caught in backcourt on fly but not if caught after bounce? What if U1 has been calling tips but R and U2 have not? Does one team get an advantage by being warned of tip? If you signal tip for backcourt, why not signal tip for OOB?

Deviation from approved mechanics is a prescription for disaster. By definition, using non-approved mechanics during play leads to inconsistency. There is absolutely nothing to gain, in terms of calling game, by signaling a no-call.

Nonsense.

You're not signalling a no-call. You're signalling who touched the ball last in the front court. There's nothing the matter with conveying that information to your partner(s) to ensure that the proper and appropriate call is subsequently made.

And yes, you can also signal the same information for out of bounds calls, both as the calling official and to assist the calling official.

It's just another tool that competent, experienced officials use when deemed necessary.

The competence of an official is measured by the accuracy of their calls. Mechanics are supposed to aid that accuracy, not hinder it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

Whoa. Say, under NF rules, A has PC in front court. Ball passed, B1 tips to backcourt. Do you signal? Isn't it BC violation if caught in backcourt on fly but not if caught after bounce? What if U1 has been calling tips but R and U2 have not? Does one team get an advantage by being warned of tip? If you signal tip for backcourt, why not signal tip for OOB?

Yes, I signal if I'c C (or L in 2-person) and the tip was in my area. It lets my partner know NOT to blow the whistle for the violation, since there wasn't one. If he sees something else that makes it a violation (e.g., A1 catching the ball on the fly, if we "believe" the interp), then he can still blow the whistle.

[Indianaref]

About a month or so ago, I believe it was a Big Ten game where the trail official signaled a tip into the backcourt, no call, then the center official tableside (Jim Burr) busts in and calls a back court violation. Jim Burr gives angry coach quick explanation. That had to be an interesting post game talk.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

Whoa. Say, under NF rules, A has PC in front court. Ball passed, B1 tips to backcourt. Do you signal? Isn't it BC violation if caught in backcourt on fly but not if caught after bounce? What if U1 has been calling tips but R and U2 have not? Does one team get an advantage by being warned of tip? If you signal tip for backcourt, why not signal tip for OOB?

Deviation from approved mechanics is a prescription for disaster. By definition, using non-approved mechanics during play leads to inconsistency. There is absolutely nothing to gain, in terms of calling game, by signaling a no-call.

Since I don't believe that interpretation, there's really no danger here.

And in general, I'd say "Lighten up, Francis." A quick signal to alert a partner doesn't equate with the end of the world.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Is the "fumble" signal similar to the "hit to the head" signal in that it elaborates on what happened, is easily understood, and yet everyone knows it's not an approved/authorized signal?

Isn't the hit to the head signal a valid signal in NCAA-W now?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

Isn't the hit to the head signal a valid signal in NCAA-W now?

Yes.

Peace

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by mbyron

In that kind of situation, I wouldn't worry too much about being accused of "coaching." You're not telling the players what to do, you're reporting the status of the ball. In this regard, signalling "fumble" is in fact like signalling a tip on a potential BC violation.

I'm sort of curious what your "fumble" signal is. Is it like the "bobble" signal umpires use at 1B?

I could envision JugglingReferee using this mechanic.

[Adam]

Interesting, I might give the tip signal if I'm the C and it came from my area, but if I'm T on this play and it's in my area the whole time, I don't signal tip.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

I could envision JugglingReferee using this mechanic.