Stay out of my pond!

[refguy]

Originally Posted by Old_School

Yes.

The quote by refguy referring to people who disagreed with his position was "I have trouble believing that they know how to apply the basic rules of officiating." I thought that statement was incredibly arrogant.

Whether a foul occurred or not is certainly debatable. Personally, I have watched the video many times and still have nor seen anything happen that I thought was a foul.

And refguy continuing to insist that it is not only OK but recommended that officials go so far out of their primary to make a call on such a highly debatable, iffy play made me wonder if refguy knows how to apply the basic rules of officiating.

He is entitled to his opinion. He is not entitled to belittle people who disagree with his opinion. That was my point, it has been made and I'll leave it at that.

I probably could have put it in a nicer way. When a player who does not have legal position causes an opponent to trip and fall, a foul should be called.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by refguy

I probably could have put it in a nicer way. When a player who does not have legal position causes an opponent to trip and fall, a foul should be called.

So a player that has a player running up his back is not in a legal position, but the player that knows where he is going is? Interesting. Based on this example, we are missing a lot of fouls.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So a player that has a player running up his back is not in a legal position, but the player that knows where he is going is? Interesting. Based on this example, we are missing a lot of fouls.

Peace

The problem with that line of thinking is that the player who has their back to another can't be moving unless it is in the same line and direction as the player coming from behind. If they're moving any other direction, they're liable for the foul. In the the case under discussion, said player was stepping sideways...not a direction permitted without LGP. LGP is also a defensive principle, the offensive player doesn't have the same or similar restrictions unless it is a screen. And the player that was "fouled" was not setting a screen.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So a player that has a player running up his back is not in a legal position, but the player that knows where he is going is? Interesting. Based on this example, we are missing a lot of fouls.

Peace

Not sure why the focus on the player "running up the defensive player's back"....KU #15 was 90% past MSU #2 and would have cleanly ran past him had MSU #2 not moved his left leg at the last second.

Also, I don't understand why the emphasis in the OP either. The L had, at most, 2 players in his primary during the throw-in to which there was no post activity happening. If I don't have any action going on in my primary, I'm looking secondary, which for the L is where this play occurred. I too, believe the L had the best angle for the play in question.

Can someone tell me the logic/rationale for the foul call on the MSU player that caused the clock to stop at 19.9 seconds? KU player goes from being a dribbler to a screener in a split second and looks like the contact occurred after the KU player hands ball to his teammate.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Can someone tell me the logic/rationale for the foul call on the MSU player that caused the clock to stop at 19.9 seconds? KU player goes from being a dribbler to a screener in a split second and looks like the contact occurred after the KU player hands ball to his teammate.

I wondered about that call also.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Not sure why the focus on the player "running up the defensive player's back"....KU #15 was 90% past MSU #2 and would have cleanly ran past him had MSU #2 not moved his left leg at the last second.

Obviously I disagree, but that is the problem with the call. No one agrees on what actually happened. I have said many times why I disagree with this statement.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Also, I don't understand why the emphasis in the OP either. The L had, at most, 2 players in his primary during the throw-in to which there was no post activity happening. If I don't have any action going on in my primary, I'm looking secondary, which for the L is where this play occurred. I too, believe the L had the best angle for the play in question.

Often time a pass or a play is going to the basket. Have you never seen an alley-op dunk pass? Often times the screens that makes that happen is around the basket. If he is looking at someone else, he might miss a hold or an illegal screen. Once again, the Trail and Center passed on this play which they are much more responsible for in this situation. It is a long way to go for a Lead to call something well beyond the three point line. I cannot think of many times I have ever had to make that kind of call in a half-court situation.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Often time a pass or a play is going to the basket. Have you never seen an alley-op dunk pass? Often times the screens that makes that happen is around the basket. If he is looking at someone else, he might miss a hold or an illegal screen. Once again, the Trail and Center passed on this play which they are much more responsible for in this situation. It is a long way to go for a Lead to call something well beyond the three point line. I cannot think of many times I have ever had to make that kind of call in a half-court situation.

The contact I'm talking about happened right at the 3-point line, so roughly 20ft from the end line. Assuming an un-obstructed view, I'd say that's a reasonable distance to make a call if you're 110% sure. That's definitely not an 'AT&T' call as you're trying to make it sound.

Again, my opinion saying that's a reasonable distance. However, it's a FACT that the contact, that I (and others) see, happened right AT the 3-point line, not 'well beyond' the 3-point line.

Agree though, that this was a very unique circumstance, and that it is probably pretty rare for an off-official to have to make such a call, but every official needs to be prepared to do just that if such a circumstance requires.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

The contact I'm talking about happened right at the 3-point line, so roughly 20ft from the end line. Assuming an un-obstructed view, I'd say that's a reasonable distance to make a call if you're 110% sure. That's definitely not an 'AT&T' call as you're trying to make it sound.

The supposed contact had to take place about 5 feet above the 3 point line. And the player did not fall until 15 feet or so away from the three point line. The call was not made until after the player fell while he was lying next to the division line. Now I do not know your knowledge of three person, but no where is outside the 3 point line in the area of the Lead official. The Lead's coverage area ends at the FT line. Now in my 10 plus years doing 3 Person that is a long ways to be looking for me or anyone. And at the college level the players are much bigger and it is harder to look clearly at those players.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Again, my opinion saying that's a reasonable distance. However, it's a FACT that the contact, that I (and others) see, happened right AT the 3-point line, not 'well beyond' the 3-point line.

FACT!! You obviously did not see the video if you think the "contact" took place at the 3 point line. Just goes the show another reason this was reaching.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Agree though, that this was a very unique circumstance, and that it is probably pretty rare for an off-official to have to make such a call, but every official needs to be prepared to do just that if such a circumstance requires.

The play was a basketball play; it was at a critical moment in the game. Two other officials were on the play and passed. What do I need to be ready to call? Seems like my partners have it covered and if you work enough 3 Person, you realize they can cover that. This was an NCAA Regional Semi-Final; I think my partners can handle the game at that point. If they cannot, then I am worrying too much.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

The contact I'm talking about happened right at the 3-point line, so roughly 20ft from the end line.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The supposed contact had to take place about 5 feet above the 3 point line.



FACT!! You obviously did not see the video if you think the "contact" took place at the 3 point line. Just goes the show another reason this was reaching.

The contact actually took place a few feet outside the arc, pretty much even with the top of the arc.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The supposed contact had to take place about 5 feet above the 3 point line. And the player did not fall until 15 feet or so away from the three point line. The call was not made until after the player fell while he was lying next to the division line. Now I do not know your knowledge of three person, but no where is outside the 3 point line in the area of the Lead official. The Lead's coverage area ends at the FT line. Now in my 10 plus years doing 3 Person that is a long ways to be looking for me or anyone. And at the college level the players are much bigger and it is harder to look clearly at those players.

That's called giving your partner, who has the primary coverage, the first crack at getting the call. The T didn't so the L came in with the call. That seemed pretty obvious to me.

Likewise, the T's covereage ends at that same FT line. Am I the only one to ever see a T come in with a rebounding foul?? Is that too a long way to be looking??? Bigger players I would agree, but I would say it would be easier to see those players because of that. I could see a size 17 foot a lot clearer at 20 feet away than I could a size 9 foot.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

FACT!! You obviously did not see the video if you think the "contact" took place at the 3 point line. Just goes the show another reason this was reaching.

Yeah, I have many times. Only took the first replay when the game was on for me to see what really happened, the MSU player lower leg contact with KU player's foot. I took a snapshot of the video when the contact occurred and drew a vertical line, ended up a foot or so outside the 3-point line. My guess is that we're not talking about the same part of the entire play.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The play was a basketball play; it was at a critical moment in the game. Two other officials were on the play and passed. What do I need to be ready to call? Seems like my partners have it covered and if you work enough 3 Person, you realize they can cover that. This was an NCAA Regional Semi-Final; I think my partners can handle the game at that point. If they cannot, then I am worrying too much.

How do you KNOW that the C passed? He had quite a few players in his line of sight and could have been blocked from seeing it.

You yourself, have said that D1 officials sometimes "miss one". True enough. Would it not be ok if one of the other two officials on the court come in and pick up their partner in that case, if one of them happened to see the play and were 110% sure? That's what I'd want, no matter the game's venue. Maybe you wouldn't. Thing is, this is just 1 call out of 100+ whistles during the game. Why is one whistle from out of primary considered 'worrying too much'?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The supposed contact had to take place about 5 feet above the 3 point line. And the player did not fall until 15 feet or so away from the three point line. The call was not made until after the player fell while he was lying next to the division line. Now I do not know your knowledge of three person, but no where is outside the 3 point line in the area of the Lead official.

I know you know believe there was contact, but, for the sake of this discussion, assume there was.

Yes, it was above the FT line, but no where near as far as you think.

The defender who the foul was called on had his right foot on the three-point line to the side of the key about 4 feet above the FT line extended. He left foot, which is what tripped the Kansas player was a step or so toward the center of the court and toward the division line.

The call was made late. It's called seeing the entire play. If the player doesn't fall, no foul. Since he ultimately fell due to the contact, foul.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Two other officials were on the play and passed. What do I need to be ready to call? Seems like my partners have it covered and if you work enough 3 Person, you realize they can cover that. This was an NCAA Regional Semi-Final; I think my partners can handle the game at that point. If they cannot, then I am worrying too much.

Peace

Take a look at where the players were....

• 2 players on the opposite sideline, a little below the FT line.
• 2 players just coming into the key around the block form the center's side just as the trip happens.
• 5 players on the L/T side of the court, between the FT line extended and top of the key extended.
• 1 player (thrower) about 8 feet below the division line.
• 0 players below the FT line and on the leads side of the lane or in the lane (with 2 coming into the far side of the lane)

Now the officials...

The C was a little above the FT line extended...perhaps top of the key. The C was clearly covering the 2 on his sideline and maybe still covering the two moving into the key from his primary...one of them looked to still be straddling the lane line on the C's side. Except for the thrower, the fouler was the farthest player from the C. The foulee, 2nd farthest. The C, with 2-4 other players to cover in his primary and 7 players closer to him than the point of the foul, wouldn't usually look to the 8th and 9th closest players for a play 3-4 feet outside the lane line extended on the opposite side.

The trial, being at the division line, could have covered it but was pretty high to cover a play just above the FT line extended....and was in no better position than the lead.

The lead had no other players in his primary...the fouled player came form his primary....maybe had two coming into his primary from the opposite side 60+ feet from the throwin spot and not actively working to be part of the play. The next match-up for the lead was the point of the foul. He was actually as close to it as he trail (perhaps a little closer even), had an unobstructed view from that position with no other competitive match-ups in his area.

Should the lead have simply packed his whistle up and waited for players to enter his primary? No. I've been taught that when there are no players in your primary, you extend to the next closest competitive matchup...in this case, the point where the foul was called.

[refguy]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Not sure why the focus on the player "running up the defensive player's back"....KU #15 was 90% past MSU #2 and would have cleanly ran past him had MSU #2 not moved his left leg at the last second.

Also, I don't understand why the emphasis in the OP either. The L had, at most, 2 players in his primary during the throw-in to which there was no post activity happening. If I don't have any action going on in my primary, I'm looking secondary, which for the L is where this play occurred. I too, believe the L had the best angle for the play in question.

Can someone tell me the logic/rationale for the foul call on the MSU player that caused the clock to stop at 19.9 seconds? KU player goes from being a dribbler to a screener in a split second and looks like the contact occurred after the KU player hands ball to his teammate.

You are making way too much sense.
You too Camron.

[Old_School]

Originally Posted by refguy

When a player who does not have legal position causes an opponent to trip and fall, a foul should be called no matter where on the floor the foul occurs and no matter how minor the contact(if any) may be.

Note that I finished your statement above to reflect your adamant opinion that officials must call plays of this type out of their primary. As noted before, my opinion is that your opinion is completely wrong. I also disagree with your contention above that the defenders had an illegal position on the court in this particular case. LGP and LGP principles do not apply. Neither defender was guarding the player that was allegedly fouled and both defenders are entitled to take a legal position on the court if they get there first. Both defenders had their position before the (alleged) contact was made. If there was contact, and I still haven't seen any, then the Kansas player initiated that contact and was the author of his own misfortune.