Who to call the foul on?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The OP said B1 and B2 fouled at the same time.

I think the baseball analogy would be the phrase, "The tie goes to the runner." I've been told the correct call is, "There's no such thing as a tie." The ball beat the runner, or the runner beat the ball, even if it's by a mere fraction of a second, and it's the umpire's job to determine which it is.

I think the same applies here - B1 and B2 didn't foul at the same time, one fouled right before the other, even though it was approximately the same time. Have you ever called, or have your partners ever called, a multiple foul on a relatively routine play like two defenders on a shooter?

Look, I get the theory of "game management". But it bothers me a little that we are, essentially, making a call based on what will cause us the least amount of grief, not what is correct. Sometimes, in that very situation, what is correct and what will cause us the least amount of grief are the same call. But, sometimes it's not. I'm uncomfortable with looking at a play, seeing A1 (the star) foul right before A2 (the sub), and purposely calling the foul on A2 solely because the coach and fans won't give me as much grief about the call, all in the name of "game management". There may be times where this is acceptable, and yes, I have made calls that were "by rule" incorrect, but ok by "game management standards". But I think where that line is drawn is different than "every time" in this type of play. It is too close, in my opinion, to simply using the excuse of "game management" to not make the correct, but unpopular calls, say, late in a close game.

[Raymond]

I'm calling it on the shorter player because he has no business being in the paint with the big fellas.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm calling it on the shorter player because he has no business being in the paint with the big fellas.

Who do you think steals the ball from the big fellas?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Who do you think steals the ball from the big fellas?

And guess which one he is?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I think the same applies here - B1 and B2 didn't foul at the same time, one fouled right before the other, even though it was approximately the same time.

Look, I have no problem with not calling multiple fouls. I don't remember ever calling one myself. What I am saying is that when you choose to make the decision that one foul came before the other, you shouldn't use criteria such as which defender is the "star" player and/or which player has the most fouls. I guess a good criteria to use is which player's foul interfered the most with the ball handler's ability to do whatever they were trying to do.

As to not knowing (or caring) how many individual fouls a player has at any given time during a game, I try to ignore any indication of that, except if the total is five. In fact, I've told scorers numerous times not to state that stat to me or my partner (except for five, of course).

Whenever a situation occurs in which a player gets a lot of foul calls early, I switch to one of my alter personalities so I forget that it happened. I think Juulie's actually witnessed this happening.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Look, I have no problem with not calling multiple fouls. I don't remember ever calling one myself. What I am saying is that when you choose to make the decision that one foul came before the other, you shouldn't use criteria such as which defender is the "star" player and/or which player has the most fouls. I guess a good criteria to use is which player's foul interfered the most with the ball handler's ability to do whatever they were trying to do.

Mark, the problem is you're not determining which foul first. That's irrelevant on this play, since the ball was live the whole time. You're determining which one to call, and you've got to choose some criteria to use. You can flip a coin (or a point guard) for all I care. I'd prefer to base it on which contact had more effect on the shot.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Mark, the problem is you're not determining which foul first. That's irrelevant on this play, since the ball was live the whole time. You're determining which one to call, and you've got to choose some criteria to use. You can flip a coin (or a point guard) for all I care. I'd prefer to base it on which contact had more effect on the shot.

I thought that's what I said: "I guess a good criteria to use is which player's foul interfered the most with the ball handler's ability to do whatever they were trying to do."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I think the baseball analogy would be the phrase, "The tie goes to the runner." I've been told the correct call is, "There's no such thing as a tie." The ball beat the runner, or the runner beat the ball, even if it's by a mere fraction of a second, and it's the umpire's job to determine which it is.

The reason the "tie goes to the runner" theory does not work, because the rule says no such thing. The runner must beat the throw or tag. If there is a tie, the runner did not beat the throw or the tag and they are out.

This is why umpires often say, "The tie goes to the umpire." That usually means they are going to be out.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I think the baseball analogy would be the phrase, "The tie goes to the runner." I've been told the correct call is, "There's no such thing as a tie." The ball beat the runner, or the runner beat the ball, even if it's by a mere fraction of a second, and it's the umpire's job to determine which it is.

Here's what I heard. Keep in mind that I only officiate basketball, but I'm a baseball fan, and my children have played baseball ,or softball.

THE TIE RULE MYTH

There is no such thing in the world of umpiring. The runner is either out or safe. The umpire must judge out or safe. It is impossible to judge a tie. Lets look at the rules (OBR) 6.05 deals with a batter becoming a runner and 7.08 deals with a runner going to 2nd, 3rd, or Home.

6.05 A batter is out when: After he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base. Here, as it relates to time, the rule states the runner must be tagged before he touches first base. So if they were to happen at the same time, the runner would be safe because the runner was not tagged “before”.

7.08 Any runner is out when: He fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner. Here it states that the runner must reach the base before the ball, thus a perception of time being a tie, the runner would be out.

With my limited knowledge of baseball rules, I have concluded that a tie goes to runner at first, and tie goes to fielders at the other bases.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I think the baseball analogy would be the phrase, "The tie goes to the runner." I've been told the correct call is, "There's no such thing as a tie." The ball beat the runner, or the runner beat the ball, even if it's by a mere fraction of a second, and it's the umpire's job to determine which it is.

Not quite: assuming we're talking about 1B, the umpire's job is to determine whether or not the runner beat the ball. In a so-called tie, the runner did not beat the ball, so he's out.

Edited to add: BillyMac, professional instruction is to enforce the standard of 7.08 and ignore that of 6.05.