Who to call the foul on?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The OP said B1 and B2 fouled at the same time.

I think the baseball analogy would be the phrase, "The tie goes to the runner." I've been told the correct call is, "There's no such thing as a tie." The ball beat the runner, or the runner beat the ball, even if it's by a mere fraction of a second, and it's the umpire's job to determine which it is.

I think the same applies here - B1 and B2 didn't foul at the same time, one fouled right before the other, even though it was approximately the same time. Have you ever called, or have your partners ever called, a multiple foul on a relatively routine play like two defenders on a shooter?

Look, I get the theory of "game management". But it bothers me a little that we are, essentially, making a call based on what will cause us the least amount of grief, not what is correct. Sometimes, in that very situation, what is correct and what will cause us the least amount of grief are the same call. But, sometimes it's not. I'm uncomfortable with looking at a play, seeing A1 (the star) foul right before A2 (the sub), and purposely calling the foul on A2 solely because the coach and fans won't give me as much grief about the call, all in the name of "game management". There may be times where this is acceptable, and yes, I have made calls that were "by rule" incorrect, but ok by "game management standards". But I think where that line is drawn is different than "every time" in this type of play. It is too close, in my opinion, to simply using the excuse of "game management" to not make the correct, but unpopular calls, say, late in a close game.

[Raymond]

I'm calling it on the shorter player because he has no business being in the paint with the big fellas.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm calling it on the shorter player because he has no business being in the paint with the big fellas.

Who do you think steals the ball from the big fellas?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Who do you think steals the ball from the big fellas?

And guess which one he is?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm calling it on the shorter player because he has no business being in the paint with the big fellas.

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Who do you think steals the ball from the big fellas?

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

And guess which one he is?

M&M is a smart fella. Also, he's intelligent too.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

M&M is a smart fella. Also, he's intelligent too.

He probably hasn't called a multiple foul, either. If two guys foul a shooter at the 'same time', does the shooter get 4 shots if he missed the shot?

Foul trouble wasn't a problem of mine.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

He probably hasn't called a multiple foul, either. If two guys foul a shooter at the 'same time', does the shooter get 4 shots if he missed the shot?

Foul trouble wasn't a problem of mine.

I can tell you one thing, I am not going to try to explain it to any coach (you will have to explain this BTW).

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

He probably hasn't called a multiple foul, either.

True.

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

If two guys foul a shooter at the 'same time', does the shooter get 4 shots if he missed the shot?

I probably haven't called this because I didn't know the answer. I looked it up, and it's actually on one of the last pages - 10-6-6: One FT for each foul, on a successful or unsuccessful 2-point try. So, what would really make things interesting is trying to explain to B's coach why, after B1 and B2 foul on a successful try, the basket counts AND A1 is going to shoot 2 FT's.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

M&M is a smart fella. Also, he's intelligent too.

Well, I wish I was as smart on my NCAA predictions as I was on my prediction about this thread...

[JPaco54]

Thanks for all the feedback. From some of the threads posted, it seems I made a good decision in calling the foul on the player who had more impact on the shot. I understand that it is difficult to determine simultaneous action. At this point in my short career (2 years), I did not process the points of game management as posted here in regards to: best player, most fouls, game impact, I just called a foul and tried to make the best decision as I saw it. Experience does play an important part in calling a game, as I have learned from many of you. I want to be able to call a fair game. Being fair to the players for the good play as well as violations they commit. I philosophically have a problem with picking and choosing a violation based on athletic ability. I try to be unbiased. Yes, I understand some of the game management issues, jeff... is referring to, which makes sense as he had addressed it from his years of experience, but I would have a tough time calling a violation based on player impact on the game. I appreciate everyone's input.

[Mark Padgett]

Guys - the obvious answer is to call it on the player who didn't buy foul insurance. If they both bought it, call in on the kid with the highest deductible.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I think the same applies here - B1 and B2 didn't foul at the same time, one fouled right before the other, even though it was approximately the same time.

Look, I have no problem with not calling multiple fouls. I don't remember ever calling one myself. What I am saying is that when you choose to make the decision that one foul came before the other, you shouldn't use criteria such as which defender is the "star" player and/or which player has the most fouls. I guess a good criteria to use is which player's foul interfered the most with the ball handler's ability to do whatever they were trying to do.

As to not knowing (or caring) how many individual fouls a player has at any given time during a game, I try to ignore any indication of that, except if the total is five. In fact, I've told scorers numerous times not to state that stat to me or my partner (except for five, of course).

Whenever a situation occurs in which a player gets a lot of foul calls early, I switch to one of my alter personalities so I forget that it happened. I think Juulie's actually witnessed this happening.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Look, I have no problem with not calling multiple fouls. I don't remember ever calling one myself. What I am saying is that when you choose to make the decision that one foul came before the other, you shouldn't use criteria such as which defender is the "star" player and/or which player has the most fouls. I guess a good criteria to use is which player's foul interfered the most with the ball handler's ability to do whatever they were trying to do.

Mark, the problem is you're not determining which foul first. That's irrelevant on this play, since the ball was live the whole time. You're determining which one to call, and you've got to choose some criteria to use. You can flip a coin (or a point guard) for all I care. I'd prefer to base it on which contact had more effect on the shot.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Mark, the problem is you're not determining which foul first. That's irrelevant on this play, since the ball was live the whole time. You're determining which one to call, and you've got to choose some criteria to use. You can flip a coin (or a point guard) for all I care. I'd prefer to base it on which contact had more effect on the shot.

I thought that's what I said: "I guess a good criteria to use is which player's foul interfered the most with the ball handler's ability to do whatever they were trying to do."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I thought that's what I said: "I guess a good criteria to use is which player's foul interfered the most with the ball handler's ability to do whatever they were trying to do."

Sorry, I missed that. I got stuck on all the talk about who fouled first. My mistake.