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Old Mon Mar 17, 2008, 12:33am
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state finals games- selecting refs

Perhaps it varies state by state. I was wondering if they pick sets of refs or all over the state. I assume they mix it up. Second question would it be better to have guys who worked together do a game?
Not to sound too critical but one of the state finals games I saw was poorly officiated. (oh oh, shields up ).I'm not going to say the game. the tv people were wrong saying perhaps the refs were not used to the quality of athletes out there because I've seen one of the refs officiate big regional games with div 1 college talent and he is a good official. But for whatever reason, perhaps nerves or working with new guys if they do pick refs from all over, the three just didn't have it going that night.
Also, I doubt this but perhaps in some state finals game they have a 4th official watching the game who can come in and give a few pointers at halftime. A change in the way the game was being called who have helped. Instead a ton of fouls were called and quite a few were touch fouls that were not being called in the other state games I watched. And there were a few phantom fouls that replays showed were clearly wrong. Again, the one ref I have seen never made those calls in the games I have seen him do, but if he was working with new people and the whistles start going I guess the set starts getting whistle happy and they end up calling an ultra tight game for two very good teams. It was fair for both sides but the way the game was officiated had a major impact on how the teams usually play. I think both teams are ranked in the top 30 nationally.

Last edited by lpbreeze; Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:35am.
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Old Mon Mar 17, 2008, 12:53am
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What is the question?

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Old Mon Mar 17, 2008, 04:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpbreeze
Not to sound too critical but one of the state finals games I saw was poorly officiated.
From your previous posts, you have zero credibility when it comes to evaluating officials.

As admitted before by yourself, you're in your first year of officiating. You very obviously don't know the basic rules by some of the posts that you've made to date. That lack of officiating knowledge hasn't stopped you from critiquing and crapping on some very experienced NCAA D1 officials though. Now you're turning your vast officiating knowledge towards dumping on veteran high school officials doing state finals. Of course, that criticism is coming from some goober who has never officiated a varsity high school game in his life. Well, what's wrong with this picture?

Did your team lose that game, fanboy?

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 05:10am.
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Old Mon Mar 17, 2008, 06:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
goober
Goober?

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Old Mon Mar 17, 2008, 07:02am
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Here's what I suggest.
Write a letter to the governing body of your state, attention "Director of Officials." List your complaints about the officiating for that game, one by one. I think if the officiating was that horrible, they have the right to know and maybe they can fix it next year by letting these guys know what they did wrong.

They need your input. Don't keep it to yourself!
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Old Mon Mar 17, 2008, 08:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Here's what I suggest.
Write a letter to the governing body of your state, attention "Director of Officials." List your complaints about the officiating for that game, one by one. I think if the officiating was that horrible, they have the right to know and maybe they can fix it next year by letting these guys know what they did wrong.

They need your input. Don't keep it to yourself!
LOL. That's some of the best "stir stick" work I've seen!
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Old Mon Mar 17, 2008, 09:38am
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lpbreeze,

This your first year. Learn something. Almost everyone here that's officiate knows the hard work to get to the top. Running down an official (the one that has been there/done that) is no way to go. How do you think they pick D1 officials? They attended camps, work some small college, and basically have to prove that they are not only good, but great. My advice to you, listen to the guys who been there and done it. They will not steer you in the wrong direction. We are always here to help you, but you must have an open mind and the will to learn and to become a better official.
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Old Mon Mar 17, 2008, 11:30am
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lpbreeze, you need a local mentor who can guide you properly. If for some reason, your local area does not provide a mentorship program. Ask nicely around here and you MIGHT get one. Furthermore, your TYPE A personality towards fellow officials will cause you to lose credibility around here. It appears that it has already happened.

My advice to you: Visit the forum read; comprehend; look up the rule reference; post only when you have things(i.e. rules; casebook plays) to back you up.

Stay the hell away from criticizing other officials on this forum.
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Old Mon Mar 17, 2008, 11:35am
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Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle
LOL. That's some of the best "stir stick" work I've seen!
Who? Me?
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Old Mon Mar 17, 2008, 12:01pm
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I didn't care who won. I did ask two veteran officials who watched the game and they also weren't too high on the officials. I did say the guy who did the game was a good official but for some reason they called an extremely tight game and it became a big part of the story instead of two teams that are among the best in the nation. Teams that get to the state finals know what they are doing but in the game about 60 fouls get called. State finals games should not be called that tight especially when there was not dirty play going on.
I asked a question about a coach getting a T during a halftime talk a while back and I thought about that when a coach at halftime was ripping the refs on tv as they walked in the background. I don't think they heard though.
But my first question was do they pick refs all over the state or ones who are used to working together. ...last post as I don't want this to turn into that other thread ..

Last edited by lpbreeze; Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:13pm.
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Old Mon Mar 17, 2008, 12:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpbreeze
I did ask two veteran officials who watched the game and they also weren't too high on the officials.
Those two officials should be drawn and quartered; either for stupidity or hubris.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lpbreeze
State finals games should not be called that tight especially when there was not dirty play going on.
Apparently there are at least three state-final-level officials who disagree with you.
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Old Mon Mar 17, 2008, 12:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpbreeze
But my first question was do they pick refs all over the state or ones who are used to working together...
I guess the answer to your question will vary from State to State. Here in CO we don't use the same crews throughout the regular season or the post season. This year the 4A boys Finals used officials from 3 different cities & the 5A boys Finals used 2 from the city & 1 from CO Springs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lpbreeze
I did ask two veteran officials who watched the game and they also weren't too high on the officials.
Perhaps they wished that they were working the game? We had some of those same types of officials watching the Finals here too. I will share with you the same advice that I received "do not to engage in that kind of conversation with them" PERIOD.
Although it does exist, but there's no room in officiating for envy & jealousy.

JMO, networking, building relationships & being likeable will get one much farther than the negative characteristics.
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Old Mon Mar 17, 2008, 01:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpbreeze
Teams that get to the state finals know what they are doing
..
If someone officiate the state finals, they too, know what they are doing
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Old Tue Mar 18, 2008, 04:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalreff
OK... so you are talking about the CA game where McKnight was blasting the officiating at half time because his 3 D1 players (UNC) and Mitty's 2 D1 players (UCLA) were all in foul trouble.
As to how the officials are picked I will quote ChiTown, " JMO, networking, building relationships & being likeable will get one much farther than the negative characteristics."
They are not crews and get selected from all over the state and the above quote has just as much to do with the selection process as anything else. One stipulation is supposed to be that you can't do a game that involves a team you've had previously. It does make it difficult for the officials when you are working with someone for the first time on a game of that magnitude. I know it's harder for me when I have no idea what to expect from partners I've never seen.
Seems like he is talking about the Mitty-Mater Dei game. I work in NorCal and worked earlier in the state tournament and also call JC mens ball in the north, but I am not at the state final level. Having worked Mitty in league and having seen Mater Dei play, in addition to it being a rematch from last year with so much D1 talent, I figured it would be a very hard game going in, especially for a mixed crew who's seen neither of the teams before. It turned out to be one. That was a type of game where the refs were stuck, because "letting them play" too much probably would have led to an out of control game. The game was borderline out of control even with the number of fouls called, including 3 Ts and an intentional foul. So the refs had to balance that and emotions while also trying to establish a flow and referee some very good players, but with it being right on the edge of a non basketball play happening. Bottom line, that was a game where very few refs, if any, come out looking good. It was the game, not the refs, for the most part IMO.

Now, with regard to the original point about selection, again, I'm not a state final ref, but I know and work with several here in CA, and the point is that I think it's a very hard task to work with 2 strangers and officiate 2 unknown teams under that microscope. From what I've heard and observed, it almost seems like a camp setting, where 3 refs are trying to prove themselves to each other and their supervisor on that type of stage. The result has tended to be calls that might not ordinarily be called during the year, and a lack of communication. Last year's Mitty-Mater Dei final was marred by a basket that was counted that never went in. In NorCal, split crews are the norm for the whole state tourney and I believe they are in SoCal too, and in the final, there is a split crew from NorCal and SoCal. Pretty hard to have a perfect system in such a big state, and this might be the best possible system for selecting refs, but it certainly has its flaws. I think this underscores the importance of solid crews, rather than just having 3 really strong refs.
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Old Tue Mar 18, 2008, 08:26am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMEngmann
I think this underscores the importance of solid crews, rather than just having 3 really strong refs.
Bottom line with all this is if you work in a state where crews are the norm, then the non-crews for post-season basketball is going to be a change from the norm and present some officials with challenges while others will handle it fine.

I now work in a state where I have different partners every night. Crews are non-existant at any level of play. While it is different than my last state, where crews are normal, it has been a blast for me. And once you are used to it, it's not a problem. It just makes pre-games much more important.
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