Pass to Head to Hoop

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Shut up.

You don't have to say it twice.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Geeze, I hope when we're officiating together, we won't be having this long discussion at center court while the teams are waiting for the final decision...

Like I said....

[asdf]

How about this scenario.... (my apologies if already discussed)

A1 dribbling outside the 3-point line sees A2 wide open under the basket.

A1 tries to pass the ball to A2 directly off the dribble (we've all seen this type of pass) and is fouled by B1. B1's contact with A1 causes the ball to strike B3 who is standing outside the lane, but inside the three point line. the ball, after striking B3 enters the basket.

You are telling me you are going to award 3 points and a foul shot for a good bucket?

or....

A1 driving to the basket and elevates as if he is going to shoot, however he passes towards A2 who is left alone because B2 comes over to help on A1. B2 fouls A1 as he passes to A2.

Are you going to wait to declare "no shot" or "on the pass" until you see if the ball is deflected into or towards the basket?

If it is deflected towards but not into the basket are you awarding two shots?

The wording may be cloudy, but the call is crystal clear.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by asdf

A1 tries to pass the ball to A2...

Not a "shot" because it's a pass. Judging whether a throw is a try turns on the official's assessment of the player's intent in throwing.

Also what umpire call a 'third world play' (with apologies to the third world) and usually ignore.

[asdf]

agreed....

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by asdf

How about this scenario.... (my apologies if already discussed)

A1 dribbling outside the 3-point line sees A2 wide open under the basket.

A1 tries to pass the ball to A2 directly off the dribble (we've all seen this type of pass) and is fouled by B1. B1's contact with A1 causes the ball to strike B3 who is standing outside the lane, but inside the three point line. the ball, after striking B3 enters the basket.

You are telling me you are going to award 3 points and a foul shot for a good bucket?

or....

A1 driving to the basket and elevates as if he is going to shoot, however he passes towards A2 who is left alone because B2 comes over to help on A1. B2 fouls A1 as he passes to A2.

Are you going to wait to declare "no shot" or "on the pass" until you see if the ball is deflected into or towards the basket?

If it is deflected towards but not into the basket are you awarding two shots?

The wording may be cloudy, but the call is crystal clear.

In both of your plays, as mbyron already mentioned, we still have to judge whether it's a try or pass/throw. So, in both instances, because it was a pass and not a try, the ball becomes dead on the foul, and no points are scored when the ball goes through the basket after the foul.

The rule and case play are only taking away our judgement as to whether it's a pass or try when a thrown ball originating outside the arc goes through the basket - it will still count 3 points. We still need to make that judgement, however, in the event of a foul, or if time expires before the ball goes through the basket.

[asdf]

In the original video, insert a foul committed against the "thrower" and you (correctly) are going to kill the play because you judged A was passing the ball.

The pass has no chance of entering the basket no matter if he was fouled or not, therefore 2 points are correctly awarded, not the 3 that you propose.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by asdf

In the original video, insert a foul committed against the "thrower" and you (correctly) are going to kill the play because you judged A was passing the ball.

The pass has no chance of entering the basket no matter if he was fouled or not, therefore 2 points are correctly awarded, not the 3 that you propose.

I don't propose it, it's the rule. 5-2-1: "A successful try, tap, or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own 19-foot 9-inch arc counts three points." The case play, 5.2.1 Sit C has A1 throwing the ball (not necessarily a try), contacting the defender inside the arc, and 3 points are still awarded.

Of course, Camron and I have been discussing what the intent of the committee was when this rule was changed. You might want to go back and read this thread all the way through, so I don't have to go through it all again.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

You might want to go back and read this thread all the way through, so I don't have to go through it all again.

A disillusioned cynic might say you were being lazy.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

A disillusioned cynic might say you were being lazy.

There you go again. I'd report you to the mods if they gave a crap.

(Actually, being lazy is using cut-and-paste techniques instead of thinking of original responses. )

[asdf]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I don't propose it, it's the rule. 5-2-1: "A successful try, tap, or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own 19-foot 9-inch arc counts three points." The case play, 5.2.1 Sit C has A1 throwing the ball (not necessarily a try), contacting the defender inside the arc, and 3 points are still awarded.

Of course, Camron and I have been discussing what the intent of the committee was when this rule was changed. You might want to go back and read this thread all the way through, so I don't have to go through it all again.

Then by your interpretation, if A1 is fouled while he is throwing the ball to A2 and it deflects off B3 into the basket, you must count the basket.

You cannot have it both ways.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by asdf

Then by your interpretation, if A1 is fouled while he is throwing the ball to A2 and it deflects off B3 into the basket, you must count the basket.

You cannot have it both ways.

No, the ball becomes dead on a foul unless there is a try involved. No basket.

[Camron Rust]

What if I judge the "thrown ball" to be a try (in the OP)....a really bad one, but a try. Doesn't that, per 4.2.1c 4.41.4B make it only a 2 if it goes in?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by asdf

Then by your interpretation, if A1 is fouled while he is throwing the ball to A2 and it deflects off B3 into the basket, you must count the basket.

You cannot have it both ways.

Nope, that is not my interpretation, and that is not the rule. I've said that from the beginning (actually, post #9 in this thread).

The rule does not magically change a thrown ball into a try. All it says is either a throw, tap, or try that originates from outside the arc counts 3 points, even if it is touched by the defense. If we judge it to be a try, than all of the rules governing a try still appliy - the basket counts if A1 is fouled, or if the horn sounds ending a period while the try is still in the air. If we judge it to be a pass, then the ball is dead immediately upon a foul, the horn sounds, etc. None of those other rules change.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

What if I judge the "thrown ball" to be a try (in the OP)....a really bad one, but a try. Doesn't that, per 4.2.1c make it only a 2 if it goes in?

Do you mean 5.2.1(c)?

If so, it bounced off the defender in the OP, so it would be a 3. If it had bounced off a teammate, then, yes, it would be a 2.