Does time need to come off the clock on TO?

[Hardwood]

Team A is shooting a free throw with .6 seconds on the clock. Coach B tells me that when his team gains control, he wants a Time Out. A1 misses the attempt and B1 goes up and gains control with both hands as coach B is saying "time out, time out." I whistle and look up and .2 is showing. I put .6 back on the clock, thinking that touching, player control, and the request for the TO all happened at the same time. Correct?

Hardwood

[just another ref]

Not correct. The rebound, assuring that team B had control, the request, and the recognition of the request all take time. Apparently, in this case, about four tenths of a second.

[JRutledge]

Some time would have to come off the clock. If the team B cannot request a timeout until they are in possession, you cannot have the same time on the clock after touching and possession was made. Maybe .2 is not the proper time, but it cannot be .6 either.

Peace

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Hardwood

Team A is shooting a free throw with .6 seconds on the clock. Coach B tells me that when his team gains control, he wants a Time Out. A1 misses the attempt and B1 goes up and gains control with both hands as coach B is saying "time out, time out." I whistle and look up and .2 is showing. I put .6 back on the clock, thinking that touching, player control, and the request for the TO all happened at the same time. Correct?

Hardwood

There's no rule that says time HAS to come off, and there's no rule that says time SHOULDN'T come off.

If you use logic though, some time has to come off. In Padgett's thread, "Suggested Fed Rule Changes", I suggested a change that if the official deems that the TO request was made just as possession was made, a set amount of time comes off the clock: 0.3s (for those clocks that show tenths of a second).

I am 100% against putting 0.6 back on the clock. Besides, the clock should be stopped when you give the stop the clock signal (and blow your whistle), not when the request was made.

[Old_School]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

There's no rule that says time HAS to come off, and there's no rule that says time SHOULDN'T come off.

If you use logic though, some time has to come off.

There are rules covering this situation.

According to the NFHS rules:
1) The clock must be started when the missed free throw is touched by B1. That's rule 5-9-3- "If a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the clock shall be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court."
2) The time-out request by the B head coach can now be granted only when B1 gains player control of the ball. That's rule 5-8-3(a)- "Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official grants a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when the ball is in control or at the disposal of his/her team."

The above rules say that the clock must start, and then the clock must be stopped. That is impossible to do without some time coming off the clock. Starting and stopping the clock are both physical acts and both have to take some time to complete. Taking 0.4 seconds to do so is very reasonable imo.

The only time that a correction may be made to the 0.2 time showing on the clock was if the timer made a mistake in either starting and stopping the clock. That's rule 5-10, and that didn't happen in the situation being discussed because the clock WAS properly started AND stopped, by rule.

The timer followed the rules. Hardwood didn't.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Old_School

There are rules covering this situation.

According to the NFHS rules:
1) The clock must be started when the missed free throw is touched by B1. That's rule 5-9-3- "If a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the clock shall be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court."

2) The time-out request by the B head coach can now be granted only when B1 gains player control of the ball. That's rule 5-8-3(a)- "Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official grants a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when the ball is in control or at the disposal of his/her team."

The above rules say that the clock must start, and then the clock must be stopped. That is impossible to do without some time coming off the clock. Starting and stopping the clock are both physical acts and both have to take some time to complete. Taking 0.4 seconds to do so is very reasonable imo.

The only time that a correction may be made to the 0.2 time showing on the clock was if the timer made a mistake in either starting and stopping the clock. That's rule 5-10, and that didn't happen in the situation being discussed because the clock WAS properly started AND stopped, by rule.

The timer followed the rules. Hardwood didn't.

I believe that you're correct, but by inference, not by an explicit rules statement. This is why I believe that a set amount of time should come off the clock, by rule. It is more consistent.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

There's no rule that says time HAS to come off, and there's no rule that says time SHOULDN'T come off.

If you use logic though, some time has to come off. In Padgett's thread, "Suggested Fed Rule Changes", I suggested a change that if the official deems that the TO request was made just as possession was made, a set amount of time comes off the clock: 0.3s (for those clocks that show tenths of a second).

I am 100% against putting 0.6 back on the clock. Besides, the clock should be stopped when you give the stop the clock signal (and blow your whistle), not when the request was made.

I don't this that this situation is as clear cut as some would like to make it.

First of all, if the ball is touched/controlled by the rebounder and the whistle is immediately blown to stop the clock, it is POSSIBLE that by the time the timer went to click to start the clock, he/she heard the whistle and stopped the action of starting the clock. This is even more likely to be the case if the timer heard the conversation between coach/official regarding the request.

I would say that tests could be run to verify how much time actually runs off a clock in these situations. I would guess that the time is more like 1/10 to 2/10s of a second -- NOT 4/10s of a second.

I would agree that it would be great if there would be a case that would tell us to take a specific amount of time off the clock in a "rebound/TO" or "catch/TO" scenario. I think that 2/10s is a better option -- since 4/10s actually allows for a possible catch AND SHOOT. But, we would know that AT LEAST 2/10s would be taken off the clock -- more if there was a bobble, etc.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

I don't this that this situation is as clear cut as some would like to make it.

First of all, if the ball is touched/controlled by the rebounder and the whistle is immediately blown to stop the clock, it is POSSIBLE that by the time the timer went to click to start the clock, he/she heard the whistle and stopped the action of starting the clock. This is even more likely to be the case if the timer heard the conversation between coach/official regarding the request.

I would say that tests could be run to verify how much time actually runs off a clock in these situations. I would guess that the time is more like 1/10 to 2/10s of a second -- NOT 4/10s of a second.

I would agree that it would be great if there would be a case that would tell us to take a specific amount of time off the clock in a "rebound/TO" or "catch/TO" scenario. I think that 2/10s is a better option -- since 4/10s actually allows for a possible catch AND SHOOT. But, we would know that AT LEAST 2/10s would be taken off the clock -- more if there was a bobble, etc.

The coach cannot make his request until the player controls the ball. So you're saying that the player can control the ball, the coach can request TO, the whistle be blown and the clock stopped in one or two tenths or a second.

I don't see it.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The coach cannot make his request until the player controls the ball. So you're saying that the player can control the ball, the coach can request TO, the whistle be blown and the clock stopped in one or two tenths or a second.

I don't see it.

The coach has already told the official he is going to be requesting a timeout -- therefore, as soon as you hear his voice (or see his hands), you are blowing your whistle.

We know that a player CAN, in theory control the ball AND RELEASE A SHOT in 4/10s of a second (that is the rule, right?). It would seem to be quite reasonable to think that the player will take at least 2/10s of a second for the shooting motion.

Bob has indicated that he can start/stop the clock in 1/10 of a second (I was able to start/stop my stop watch in 1/10 as well). For all intents and purposes, the act of controlling the ball and the request for a timeout was virtually instantaneous. Therefore, a TO with 4/10s of a second is possible. In fact, 5/10s may even be possible.

I have had situations in which the ball was thrown inbounds with less than 1 minute remaining. The ball was thrown inbounds and immediately knocked back out of bounds by the defender with no time running off the clock. I don't go over to the timer and have him/her run 1/10 or 2/10s of a second off of the clock.

It seems to me that at one point in time, we were to consider up to 5/10s of a second running off the clock following a whistle to be "normal response tme" for the timer (I am guessing that Nevadaref has this information in a case/POE somewhere). We can now, set the clock to the time we actually see (without having to take that time delay into effect). If this is true (it might not be, but I would swear I remember it), then one could assume that the clock MIGHT NOT START AT ALL if it only took 4/10s of a second to Control the ball and call timeout (since the timer could have up to a 5/10s of a second delay in starting -- and therefore would be ready to switch on when he heard the request to stop the clock).

If the official is anticipating the timeout request, he may have been able to get in position to see the player controlling the ball, see/hear the coach request timeout while seeing the clock as he was blowing his whistle (at 6/10s of a second possibly).

I am only saying that, in my opinion, it is POSSIBLE (without a rule requiring a minimum amount of time to elapse by rule -- similar to the 3/10 of a second tap only rule) for no time to run off the clock. It is also POSSIBLE as others have pointed out that all 6/10s of a second ran off the clock. If the official had definite knowledge of the clock (granted, it is VERY HARD to see the tenths of a second), when he sounded his whistle, he would be within his right to set the clock to that time, correct?

[just another ref]

The coach will be yelling timeout when the shot comes off the rim, or possibly even before that, but there are still multiple things to happen.

Official see first touch, chops clock in/Timer hits start

Official sees that B has control.

Official hears/recognizes TO request.

Official signals/whistles TO/Timer hits stop

What is a reasonable amount of time for all this?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

The coach has already told the official he is going to be requesting a timeout -- therefore, as soon as you hear his voice (or see his hands), you are blowing your whistle.

I don't care if he tells everyone in the gym. He CANNOT make the request until there is player control and I CANNOT grant the timeout until he makes the request. That CANNOT happen in one or two tenths as you previosly suggested.

And Snaq, you've just decided to make up your own rules? Based on that, I guess if there's a scramble for the ball, the coach yells timeout, you're gonna give it to him if his player gains control? I'd really like to know how that's fair to the opposing team.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

I don't this that this situation is as clear cut as some would like to make it.

First of all, if the ball is touched/controlled by the rebounder and the whistle is immediately blown to stop the clock, it is POSSIBLE that by the time the timer went to click to start the clock, he/she heard the whistle and stopped the action of starting the clock. This is even more likely to be the case if the timer heard the conversation between coach/official regarding the request.

I would say that tests could be run to verify how much time actually runs off a clock in these situations. I would guess that the time is more like 1/10 to 2/10s of a second -- NOT 4/10s of a second.

I would agree that it would be great if there would be a case that would tell us to take a specific amount of time off the clock in a "rebound/TO" or "catch/TO" scenario. I think that 2/10s is a better option -- since 4/10s actually allows for a possible catch AND SHOOT. But, we would know that AT LEAST 2/10s would be taken off the clock -- more if there was a bobble, etc.

With the clock stopped, and the first touch inbounds is via an illegal act, most would agree that we do not start the clock. I think the opposite is true, that when the first touch inbounds is legal, we need to have a start,and then if necessary, a stop.

Somebody (NBA?) did a study that players couldn't catch and release with 0.3s or less. For ease-of-rule sake, make 0.3s for the max time that can come off the clock if it is deemed to be a simultaneous legal inbounds touch/reason to stop the clock. If someone does a study and it turns out to be some other value, then so be it. But to say that no time can come off the clock conflicts too much with the case of the first touching being illegal.

OTOH, we can argue that it takes 0.3s for possession to be gained. Possession and shot takes more than 0.3s. So, possession and TO could require 0.4s to come off the clock.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

With the clock stopped, and the first touch inbounds is via an illegal act, most would agree that we do not start the clock. I think the opposite is true, that when the first touch inbounds is legal, we need to have a start,and then if necessary, a stop.

OTOH, we can argue that it takes 0.3s for possession to be gained. Possession and shot takes more than 0.3s. So, possession and TO could require 0.4s to come off the clock.

JR,
So, you are saying that everytime a throw-in takes place in the last minute of a quarter in which the ball is thrown inbounds and the defender immediately knocks the ball out of bounds (into the hands of the thrower on down to the ground), you will take some amount of time off the clock in the event the clock never started? If so, how much time do you take off the clock in this case? The ball was LEGALLY touched in play by the defender in this case, correct?

By the way, I think it would be hard to prove that it takes a full 3/10s of a second to control the ball.

We are truly talking about a very small amount of time in the original post. Due to the reaction times of human beings (delay in starting, delay in stopping, delay in hearing the request for the tmeout, etc.), I maintain that any amount of time between 6/10s of a second and 0/10s of a second are POSSIBLE. The LEAST LIKELY acceptable time would be 0/10s knowing that the player controlled the ball immediately and the request was made immediately).

As has been pointed out, we really need to have DEFINITE KNOWLEDGE to put time back up on the clock. When we are dealing with fractions of a second, this is EXTREMELY difficult.

If we would have a set MINIMUM amount of time by rule for a control/timeout request to be made (similar to the MINIMUM of 4/10s of a second for a control/shoot), this situation could easily be determined. Without such a ruling, any option is possible when such a small sliver of time is being discussed.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Hardwood

Team A is shooting a free throw with .6 seconds on the clock. Coach B tells me that when his team gains control, he wants a Time Out. A1 misses the attempt and B1 goes up and gains control with both hands as coach B is saying "time out, time out." I whistle and look up and .2 is showing. I put .6 back on the clock, thinking that touching, player control, and the request for the TO all happened at the same time. Correct?

Hardwood

I agree with the others. The clock must start and stop. This is not a timing error. Turn the clock on and off and it's not hard to believe 4/10ths will come off.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I agree with the others. The clock must start and stop. This is not a timing error. Turn the clock on and off and it's not hard to believe 4/10ths will come off.

B1 gains possesion
Timer starts clock
Coach calls time out
Official blows whistle
It's not hard to believe the horn would go off in 6/10ths either.

If in the OP, the Official knows and the Timer knows a time out is coming....but yet the timer does not get the clock started and then stopped within 6/10ths....and the horn goes off.....game over?