Does time need to come off the clock on TO?

[Hardwood]

Team A is shooting a free throw with .6 seconds on the clock. Coach B tells me that when his team gains control, he wants a Time Out. A1 misses the attempt and B1 goes up and gains control with both hands as coach B is saying "time out, time out." I whistle and look up and .2 is showing. I put .6 back on the clock, thinking that touching, player control, and the request for the TO all happened at the same time. Correct?

Hardwood

[just another ref]

Not correct. The rebound, assuring that team B had control, the request, and the recognition of the request all take time. Apparently, in this case, about four tenths of a second.

[JRutledge]

Some time would have to come off the clock. If the team B cannot request a timeout until they are in possession, you cannot have the same time on the clock after touching and possession was made. Maybe .2 is not the proper time, but it cannot be .6 either.

Peace

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Hardwood

Team A is shooting a free throw with .6 seconds on the clock. Coach B tells me that when his team gains control, he wants a Time Out. A1 misses the attempt and B1 goes up and gains control with both hands as coach B is saying "time out, time out." I whistle and look up and .2 is showing. I put .6 back on the clock, thinking that touching, player control, and the request for the TO all happened at the same time. Correct?

Hardwood

There's no rule that says time HAS to come off, and there's no rule that says time SHOULDN'T come off.

If you use logic though, some time has to come off. In Padgett's thread, "Suggested Fed Rule Changes", I suggested a change that if the official deems that the TO request was made just as possession was made, a set amount of time comes off the clock: 0.3s (for those clocks that show tenths of a second).

I am 100% against putting 0.6 back on the clock. Besides, the clock should be stopped when you give the stop the clock signal (and blow your whistle), not when the request was made.

[Old_School]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

There's no rule that says time HAS to come off, and there's no rule that says time SHOULDN'T come off.

If you use logic though, some time has to come off.

There are rules covering this situation.

According to the NFHS rules:
1) The clock must be started when the missed free throw is touched by B1. That's rule 5-9-3- "If a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the clock shall be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court."
2) The time-out request by the B head coach can now be granted only when B1 gains player control of the ball. That's rule 5-8-3(a)- "Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official grants a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when the ball is in control or at the disposal of his/her team."

The above rules say that the clock must start, and then the clock must be stopped. That is impossible to do without some time coming off the clock. Starting and stopping the clock are both physical acts and both have to take some time to complete. Taking 0.4 seconds to do so is very reasonable imo.

The only time that a correction may be made to the 0.2 time showing on the clock was if the timer made a mistake in either starting and stopping the clock. That's rule 5-10, and that didn't happen in the situation being discussed because the clock WAS properly started AND stopped, by rule.

The timer followed the rules. Hardwood didn't.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Old_School

There are rules covering this situation.

According to the NFHS rules:
1) The clock must be started when the missed free throw is touched by B1. That's rule 5-9-3- "If a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the clock shall be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court."

2) The time-out request by the B head coach can now be granted only when B1 gains player control of the ball. That's rule 5-8-3(a)- "Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official grants a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when the ball is in control or at the disposal of his/her team."

The above rules say that the clock must start, and then the clock must be stopped. That is impossible to do without some time coming off the clock. Starting and stopping the clock are both physical acts and both have to take some time to complete. Taking 0.4 seconds to do so is very reasonable imo.

The only time that a correction may be made to the 0.2 time showing on the clock was if the timer made a mistake in either starting and stopping the clock. That's rule 5-10, and that didn't happen in the situation being discussed because the clock WAS properly started AND stopped, by rule.

The timer followed the rules. Hardwood didn't.

I believe that you're correct, but by inference, not by an explicit rules statement. This is why I believe that a set amount of time should come off the clock, by rule. It is more consistent.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Hardwood

Team A is shooting a free throw with .6 seconds on the clock. Coach B tells me that when his team gains control, he wants a Time Out. A1 misses the attempt and B1 goes up and gains control with both hands as coach B is saying "time out, time out." I whistle and look up and .2 is showing. I put .6 back on the clock, thinking that touching, player control, and the request for the TO all happened at the same time. Correct?

Hardwood

I agree with the others. The clock must start and stop. This is not a timing error. Turn the clock on and off and it's not hard to believe 4/10ths will come off.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

There's no rule that says time HAS to come off, and there's no rule that says time SHOULDN'T come off.

If you use logic though, some time has to come off. In Padgett's thread, "Suggested Fed Rule Changes", I suggested a change that if the official deems that the TO request was made just as possession was made, a set amount of time comes off the clock: 0.3s (for those clocks that show tenths of a second).

I am 100% against putting 0.6 back on the clock. Besides, the clock should be stopped when you give the stop the clock signal (and blow your whistle), not when the request was made.

I don't this that this situation is as clear cut as some would like to make it.

First of all, if the ball is touched/controlled by the rebounder and the whistle is immediately blown to stop the clock, it is POSSIBLE that by the time the timer went to click to start the clock, he/she heard the whistle and stopped the action of starting the clock. This is even more likely to be the case if the timer heard the conversation between coach/official regarding the request.

I would say that tests could be run to verify how much time actually runs off a clock in these situations. I would guess that the time is more like 1/10 to 2/10s of a second -- NOT 4/10s of a second.

I would agree that it would be great if there would be a case that would tell us to take a specific amount of time off the clock in a "rebound/TO" or "catch/TO" scenario. I think that 2/10s is a better option -- since 4/10s actually allows for a possible catch AND SHOOT. But, we would know that AT LEAST 2/10s would be taken off the clock -- more if there was a bobble, etc.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

I don't this that this situation is as clear cut as some would like to make it.

First of all, if the ball is touched/controlled by the rebounder and the whistle is immediately blown to stop the clock, it is POSSIBLE that by the time the timer went to click to start the clock, he/she heard the whistle and stopped the action of starting the clock. This is even more likely to be the case if the timer heard the conversation between coach/official regarding the request.

I would say that tests could be run to verify how much time actually runs off a clock in these situations. I would guess that the time is more like 1/10 to 2/10s of a second -- NOT 4/10s of a second.

I would agree that it would be great if there would be a case that would tell us to take a specific amount of time off the clock in a "rebound/TO" or "catch/TO" scenario. I think that 2/10s is a better option -- since 4/10s actually allows for a possible catch AND SHOOT. But, we would know that AT LEAST 2/10s would be taken off the clock -- more if there was a bobble, etc.

The coach cannot make his request until the player controls the ball. So you're saying that the player can control the ball, the coach can request TO, the whistle be blown and the clock stopped in one or two tenths or a second.

I don't see it.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I agree with the others. The clock must start and stop. This is not a timing error. Turn the clock on and off and it's not hard to believe 4/10ths will come off.

B1 gains possesion
Timer starts clock
Coach calls time out
Official blows whistle
It's not hard to believe the horn would go off in 6/10ths either.

If in the OP, the Official knows and the Timer knows a time out is coming....but yet the timer does not get the clock started and then stopped within 6/10ths....and the horn goes off.....game over?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

I don't this that this situation is as clear cut as some would like to make it.

First of all, if the ball is touched/controlled by the rebounder and the whistle is immediately blown to stop the clock, it is POSSIBLE that by the time the timer went to click to start the clock, he/she heard the whistle and stopped the action of starting the clock. This is even more likely to be the case if the timer heard the conversation between coach/official regarding the request.

I would say that tests could be run to verify how much time actually runs off a clock in these situations. I would guess that the time is more like 1/10 to 2/10s of a second -- NOT 4/10s of a second.

I would agree that it would be great if there would be a case that would tell us to take a specific amount of time off the clock in a "rebound/TO" or "catch/TO" scenario. I think that 2/10s is a better option -- since 4/10s actually allows for a possible catch AND SHOOT. But, we would know that AT LEAST 2/10s would be taken off the clock -- more if there was a bobble, etc.

With the clock stopped, and the first touch inbounds is via an illegal act, most would agree that we do not start the clock. I think the opposite is true, that when the first touch inbounds is legal, we need to have a start,and then if necessary, a stop.

Somebody (NBA?) did a study that players couldn't catch and release with 0.3s or less. For ease-of-rule sake, make 0.3s for the max time that can come off the clock if it is deemed to be a simultaneous legal inbounds touch/reason to stop the clock. If someone does a study and it turns out to be some other value, then so be it. But to say that no time can come off the clock conflicts too much with the case of the first touching being illegal.

OTOH, we can argue that it takes 0.3s for possession to be gained. Possession and shot takes more than 0.3s. So, possession and TO could require 0.4s to come off the clock.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by CoachP

B1 gains possesion
Timer starts clock
Coach calls time out
Official blows whistle
It's not hard to believe the horn would go off in 6/10ths either.

I agree.

If in the OP, the Official knows and the Timer knows a time out is coming....but yet the timer does not get the clock started and then stopped within 6/10ths....and the horn goes off.....game over?

Unless I have definite knowledge as to how much time should have expired, I can't put any time back on the clock. And I'm not going to guess.

[jearef]

Unless we are dealing with a sitch where the timer starts the clock when he should not have, it is difficult for me to imagine any situation where we would have "definite knowledge" of a timing mistake in tenths of a second.

One poster has suggested that perhaps all of this could have taken place in .2 seconds. Although I could certainly be wrong, I just can't see that happening. I'd be willing to bet that we could ask a timer to start and then stop the clock as quickly as possible, and he couldn't do it in .2 seconds. My guess is that the timer in this case did a good job. I don't know how you could justify any adjustment to the clock under the given circumstances.

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by jearef

Unless we are dealing with a sitch where the timer starts the clock when he should not have, it is difficult for me to imagine any situation where we would have "definite knowledge" of a timing mistake in tenths of a second.

One poster has suggested that perhaps all of this could have taken place in .2 seconds. Although I could certainly be wrong, I just can't see that happening. I'd be willing to bet that we could ask a timer to start and then stop the clock as quickly as possible, and he couldn't do it in .2 seconds. My guess is that the timer in this case did a good job. I don't know how you could justify any adjustment to the clock under the given circumstances.

Having run a clock, I can say that 0.2 is unlikely, even with the hand held device. On my stop watch just now, the shortest time I could do is 0.18 secs with the most common being 0.23 secs.

[ma_ref]

Temporarily forgetting about the argument made for the amount of time necessary for a player to secure control of the ball versus when the clock starts, anybody think about the obvious point of how long it takes the coach to actually say "time out"?

- Clock doesn't start until a player touches the ball after the missed FT
- Coach can't call timeout until player on his team has possession of the ball
- Once posession has been established, he may request a TO

Now unless the coach is this guy, it's gonna take a minimum of a few tenths of a second to physically spit out the words, "time out". Yes, I know the coach can visually request a time-out instead of saying it, but for no time to come off the clock the request would have to come at the same time as they gain possession, and if you're an official watching a coach in this situation, instead of the players, you've got bigger problems...

I do think it impossible for no time to come off the clock, however I'm not going to guesstimate how much time is supposed to be put on the clock. Coach might have to live with the fact that he may not get that TO. I know it's gonna be a tough sell when he complains that he should get a TO with the full .6, but nobody said our job was easy...