Does time need to come off the clock on TO?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

Temporarily forgetting about the argument made for the amount of time necessary for a player to secure control of the ball versus when the clock starts, anybody think about the obvious point of how long it takes the coach to actually say "time out"?

You beat me to it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jearef

Unless we are dealing with a sitch where the timer starts the clock when he should not have, it is difficult for me to imagine any situation where we would have "definite knowledge" of a timing mistake in tenths of a second.

One poster has suggested that perhaps all of this could have taken place in .2 seconds. Although I could certainly be wrong, I just can't see that happening. I'd be willing to bet that we could ask a timer to start and then stop the clock as quickly as possible, and he couldn't do it in .2 seconds. My guess is that the timer in this case did a good job. I don't know how you could justify any adjustment to the clock under the given circumstances.

I've had to help (lower level) timers reset the clock and am able to turn it on and off in .1 seconds.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

Temporarily forgetting about the argument made for the amount of time necessary for a player to secure control of the ball versus when the clock starts, anybody think about the obvious point of how long it takes the coach to actually say "time out"?

- Clock doesn't start until a player touches the ball after the missed FT
- Coach can't call timeout until player on his team has possession of the ball
- Once posession has been established, he may request a TO

Yes, I did. I wrote it 45 minutes before you did.

The coach cannot make his request until the player controls the ball. So you're saying that the player can control the ball, the coach can request TO, the whistle be blown and the clock stopped in one or two tenths or a second.

I don't see it.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The coach cannot make his request until the player controls the ball. So you're saying that the player can control the ball, the coach can request TO, the whistle be blown and the clock stopped in one or two tenths or a second.

I don't see it.

The coach has already told the official he is going to be requesting a timeout -- therefore, as soon as you hear his voice (or see his hands), you are blowing your whistle.

We know that a player CAN, in theory control the ball AND RELEASE A SHOT in 4/10s of a second (that is the rule, right?). It would seem to be quite reasonable to think that the player will take at least 2/10s of a second for the shooting motion.

Bob has indicated that he can start/stop the clock in 1/10 of a second (I was able to start/stop my stop watch in 1/10 as well). For all intents and purposes, the act of controlling the ball and the request for a timeout was virtually instantaneous. Therefore, a TO with 4/10s of a second is possible. In fact, 5/10s may even be possible.

I have had situations in which the ball was thrown inbounds with less than 1 minute remaining. The ball was thrown inbounds and immediately knocked back out of bounds by the defender with no time running off the clock. I don't go over to the timer and have him/her run 1/10 or 2/10s of a second off of the clock.

It seems to me that at one point in time, we were to consider up to 5/10s of a second running off the clock following a whistle to be "normal response tme" for the timer (I am guessing that Nevadaref has this information in a case/POE somewhere). We can now, set the clock to the time we actually see (without having to take that time delay into effect). If this is true (it might not be, but I would swear I remember it), then one could assume that the clock MIGHT NOT START AT ALL if it only took 4/10s of a second to Control the ball and call timeout (since the timer could have up to a 5/10s of a second delay in starting -- and therefore would be ready to switch on when he heard the request to stop the clock).

If the official is anticipating the timeout request, he may have been able to get in position to see the player controlling the ball, see/hear the coach request timeout while seeing the clock as he was blowing his whistle (at 6/10s of a second possibly).

I am only saying that, in my opinion, it is POSSIBLE (without a rule requiring a minimum amount of time to elapse by rule -- similar to the 3/10 of a second tap only rule) for no time to run off the clock. It is also POSSIBLE as others have pointed out that all 6/10s of a second ran off the clock. If the official had definite knowledge of the clock (granted, it is VERY HARD to see the tenths of a second), when he sounded his whistle, he would be within his right to set the clock to that time, correct?

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

With the clock stopped, and the first touch inbounds is via an illegal act, most would agree that we do not start the clock. I think the opposite is true, that when the first touch inbounds is legal, we need to have a start,and then if necessary, a stop.

OTOH, we can argue that it takes 0.3s for possession to be gained. Possession and shot takes more than 0.3s. So, possession and TO could require 0.4s to come off the clock.

JR,
So, you are saying that everytime a throw-in takes place in the last minute of a quarter in which the ball is thrown inbounds and the defender immediately knocks the ball out of bounds (into the hands of the thrower on down to the ground), you will take some amount of time off the clock in the event the clock never started? If so, how much time do you take off the clock in this case? The ball was LEGALLY touched in play by the defender in this case, correct?

By the way, I think it would be hard to prove that it takes a full 3/10s of a second to control the ball.

We are truly talking about a very small amount of time in the original post. Due to the reaction times of human beings (delay in starting, delay in stopping, delay in hearing the request for the tmeout, etc.), I maintain that any amount of time between 6/10s of a second and 0/10s of a second are POSSIBLE. The LEAST LIKELY acceptable time would be 0/10s knowing that the player controlled the ball immediately and the request was made immediately).

As has been pointed out, we really need to have DEFINITE KNOWLEDGE to put time back up on the clock. When we are dealing with fractions of a second, this is EXTREMELY difficult.

If we would have a set MINIMUM amount of time by rule for a control/timeout request to be made (similar to the MINIMUM of 4/10s of a second for a control/shoot), this situation could easily be determined. Without such a ruling, any option is possible when such a small sliver of time is being discussed.

[just another ref]

The coach will be yelling timeout when the shot comes off the rim, or possibly even before that, but there are still multiple things to happen.

Official see first touch, chops clock in/Timer hits start

Official sees that B has control.

Official hears/recognizes TO request.

Official signals/whistles TO/Timer hits stop

What is a reasonable amount of time for all this?

[Adam]

If I hear the coach asking for a timeout here, as soon as I judge his player has control, I'm blowing my whistle. I'm not waiting for the sequence (control, request, then whistle) to happen in some sort of clear order.

That said, time should come off but there's no way to correct it if it doesn't (I'm okay with that). No way I'm putting time back on the clock.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

The coach has already told the official he is going to be requesting a timeout -- therefore, as soon as you hear his voice (or see his hands), you are blowing your whistle.

I don't care if he tells everyone in the gym. He CANNOT make the request until there is player control and I CANNOT grant the timeout until he makes the request. That CANNOT happen in one or two tenths as you previosly suggested.

And Snaq, you've just decided to make up your own rules? Based on that, I guess if there's a scramble for the ball, the coach yells timeout, you're gonna give it to him if his player gains control? I'd really like to know how that's fair to the opposing team.

[Adam]

You know me better than that; I hope. I can see that I need to ensure the coach is actually requesting it after his player has control, but if I hear him requesting it before hand, I'll be a lot quicker to respond.

Let me make it more clear. I was wrong.