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Old Wed Mar 04, 2009, 11:17am
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How would this hypothetical be sorted out?

A1 shoots a 3-pointer and is fouled pretty hard by B1. The try is no good. B1 doesn't mean any harm, just the way he contacted A1, it was a hard foul. A1 takes exception to this and decides to deck B1 in the jaw. B1 is smart and walks away.

Before the punch, A1 would have had three free throw attempts coming. Obviously, though, A1 is ejected for fighting.

How is it handled from here? Does A1's substitute still get three free throws?
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Old Wed Mar 04, 2009, 11:23am
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yes substitute must shoot FT. Then anyone from team B shoots Tech throws and B gets ball at Division line following final throw.
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Old Wed Mar 04, 2009, 11:28am
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Originally Posted by bas2456 View Post
A1 shoots a 3-pointer and is fouled pretty hard by B1. The try is no good. B1 doesn't mean any harm, just the way he contacted A1, it was a hard foul. A1 takes exception to this and decides to deck B1 in the jaw. B1 is smart and walks away.

Before the punch, A1 would have had three free throw attempts coming. Obviously, though, A1 is ejected for fighting.

How is it handled from here? Does A1's substitute still get three free throws?
Why wouldn't he?
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Old Wed Mar 04, 2009, 11:59am
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What if you called an intentional personal foul?

citing 4.19.3
A foul shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent.

If intentional foul was called, would it affect the procedures?

Would it still be 3 free throws for team A followed by 2 technical free throws for B plus B with the ball at the division line for a throw in?
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Old Wed Mar 04, 2009, 12:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopguy View Post
citing 4.19.3
A foul shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent.

If intentional foul was called, would it affect the procedures?

Would it still be 3 free throws for team A followed by 2 technical free throws for B plus B with the ball at the division line for a throw in?
The procedure is not altered simply because an excessive contact foul is called. This is still simply a false double foul: penalize in the order they ocurred. Don't forget to remove the ejected player before any fouls shots, though.

Yes.
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Old Wed Mar 04, 2009, 12:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bas2456 View Post
A1 shoots a 3-pointer and is fouled pretty hard by B1. The try is no good. B1 doesn't mean any harm, just the way he contacted A1, it was a hard foul. A1 takes exception to this and decides to deck B1 in the jaw. B1 is smart and walks away.

Before the punch, A1 would have had three free throw attempts coming. Obviously, though, A1 is ejected for fighting.

How is it handled from here? Does A1's substitute still get three free throws?
Even before I read that A1 decks B1, I got the feeling of an intentional foul (for excessive contact) on B1. This is a good call when you must eject A1.

Obtain the substitute for A1 being ejected.

A1's substitute will be awarded three shots for B1's foul.

Then B-anyone shoots the two shots for the flagrant foul. B throw-in @ the DL.
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Old Wed Mar 04, 2009, 12:19pm
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The NCAA ruling is different

Here's how we'd proceed under NCAA rules, where T's work differently: Team B shoots two FTs for the T, then we go to POI, which is A1's substitute shooting 3 FTs. If the foul by B1 is ruled a common foul, then players occupy the lane spaces and play continues normally after the last FT. If the foul by B1 is ruled intentional, no one occupies the lane spaces and A gets a throw-in at the spot nearest where the foul occurred after the last FT.
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Old Wed Mar 04, 2009, 12:27pm
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Why isn't B ejected? 4-18-2 sure has an argument here.
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Old Wed Mar 04, 2009, 12:36pm
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Originally Posted by Jimmie24 View Post
Why isn't B ejected? 4-18-2 sure has an argument here.
4-18-2: An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act that causes a person to retaliate by fighting.

Maybe. However, strictly speaking, B1 possibly didn't attempt to start a fight. Our judgment; it's why we get paid.
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Old Wed Mar 04, 2009, 12:38pm
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Originally Posted by Lotto View Post
Here's how we'd proceed under NCAA rules, where T's work differently: Team B shoots two FTs for the T, then we go to POI, which is A1's substitute shooting 3 FTs. If the foul by B1 is ruled a common foul, then players occupy the lane spaces and play continues normally after the last FT. If the foul by B1 is ruled intentional, no one occupies the lane spaces and A gets a throw-in at the spot nearest where the foul occurred after the last FT.
I thought a flagrant dead ball contact included the throwin.
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Old Wed Mar 04, 2009, 12:39pm
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Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
4-18-2: An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act that causes a person to retaliate by fighting.

Maybe. However, strictly speaking, B1 possibly didn't attempt to start a fight. Our judgment; it's why we get paid.
Don't have my book, but I thought there was a case play for this that basically said a borderline act that actually leads to a fight should be considered fighting as well.
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Old Wed Mar 04, 2009, 12:44pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
I thought a flagrant dead ball contact included the throwin.
NCAAM v. NCAAW
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Old Wed Mar 04, 2009, 12:45pm
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There was a case play in years past that showed a hard foul and a retalliation punch equaled a fight by both players.
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Old Wed Mar 04, 2009, 12:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Don't have my book, but I thought there was a case play for this that basically said a borderline act that actually leads to a fight should be considered fighting as well.
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Originally Posted by Jimmie24 View Post
There was a case play in years past that showed a hard foul and a retalliation punch equaled a fight by both players.
I remember this as well. A borderline act would need to be clearly defined though. A hard foul (excessive contact) does that. It does lead to an unequal penalty, though.

Oddly enough, I was assigned a regional final for last night and I had an excessive contact foul (b1 against A1) where the contact did gather some attention by other A players.
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Old Wed Mar 04, 2009, 01:46pm
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
10-3 Art. 17. Fighting as in Rule 4-26.
PENALTY: (Arts. 13 through 17) Flagrant technical fouls. Two free
throws shall be awarded to any player on the offended
team, unless double fouls are assessed. For double flagrant
technical fouls, no free throws are awarded. For any
flagrant technical foul, the ball shall be awarded to the
offended team at the point of interruption. When a single
flagrant technical foul occurs during intermission for
the second or any extra period, play shall resume with a
throw-in to the offended team on either side of midcourt.
...

So yes, Team B should have a throw-in in the OP's scenario.
Is this NCAA?
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