tagging up..hypothetical..

learnintheropes · #1 (**permalink**) Mon May 12, 2003, 09:38am

OK - I have never seen this situation, but I had a discusion regaring retouching a base after a fly ball has been caught as an appeal play. I know that by the fielders actions, the appeal can be made (as oppsed to verbally appealing). The situation in question is this: Fielder (say F3) makes catch,runner is off the base, fielder doesn't realize the runner is off the base (not impossible in 12U), but steps on the base in the process of throwing the ball back to the pitcher. If the umpire makes no call, the coach will go nuts and probably call time. Now..to have an appeal, does it require that, in the umpires judgement, the fielder knew what was going on? What are your opinions? Would it be the same situation as if a runner missed home plate, no one but the UP saw it, the catcher has the ball and steps on home throwing back to the pithcer? In that case I don't think I would have an out. Thoughts?

CecilOne · #2 (**permalink**) Mon May 12, 2003, 10:01am

1) "by the fielders actions, the appeal can be made " is called a "live ball appeal" (any fielder).
2) "verbally appealing" is called a "dead ball appeal" so obviously the ball must be dead (no outfielders).
3) Yes, the runner is out for not tagging. Even if we could determine what the fielder knows or thinks, the physical touch causes the out.
4) The runner at home is also out. The umpire is only expected to be a mind reader when the rule specifically requires intent and that usually has to be accompanied by some physical indication.

sprivitor · #3 (**permalink**) Mon May 12, 2003, 10:01am

Umpire Judgment if runner was making an appeal play. If Ump feels that player knew what she was doing (making an appeal), runner out.

sprivitor · #4 (**permalink**) Mon May 12, 2003, 10:03am

Little League Speaking,

If ball is dead, no appeal can be made.

learnintheropes · #5 (**permalink**) Mon May 12, 2003, 10:12am

I am talking little league.

WestMichBlue · #6 (**permalink**) Mon May 12, 2003, 12:37pm

Cecil - for a guy that normally has all the right answers, you must be brain-dead this Monday morning.

(1) by the fielders actions, the appeal can be made " is called a "live ball appeal" (any fielder).

No. It is a live ball appeal because the ball is live! Both a request and an action is requred. The request can be either physical or verbal or both. The action must be physical (tag the base or the runner). If the player demands the ball and runs over and tags the base and looks at me, I can assume an appeal. I still prefer verbal "Blue, appealing that she left early" so I am not guessing intent.

(2) "verbally appealing" is called a "dead ball appeal" so obviously the ball must be dead (no outfielders).

Well - - - it a dead ball appeal because the ball is dead. No physical action is required, only a verbal request.

(3) Yes, the runner is out for not tagging. Even if we could determine what the fielder knows or thinks, the physical touch causes the out. (4) The runner at home is also out. The umpire is only expected to be a mind reader when the rule specifically requires intent and that usually has to be accompanied by some physical indication.

No, no, no. Read definition of appeal: "A play on which the umpire does not make a ruling unless requested by a coach or player. A causal or accidental tag IS NOT a request. NO request, you have NO ruling.

Now, got get yourself a cup of coffee. (VBG)

WMB

Dakota · #7 (**permalink**) Tue May 13, 2003, 07:47am

Some rules recognize the "accidental appeal" - but ASA does not. If the fielder stepped on the base as a consequence of turning to throw, then no appeal would be recognized, since none was made.

If the coach was a baseball guy, he'd probably go nuts, since (if memory serves) OBR recognizes the accidental appeal (I'm no OBR guy, so corrections welcomed).

SamNVa · #8 (**permalink**) Tue May 13, 2003, 08:59am

Nope, sorry Tom, OBR requires an "obvious" appeal play, much like ASA. You must be thinking of FED baseball where an accidental appeal is allowed. But then all baseball games look alike, don't they?

SamC

Dakota · #9 (**permalink**) Tue May 13, 2003, 09:28am

Quote:

Originally posted by SamNVa
Nope, sorry Tom, OBR requires an "obvious" appeal play, much like ASA. You must be thinking of FED baseball where an accidental appeal is allowed. But then all baseball games look alike, don't they?

SamC

Ha! Thanks for the correction!

DownTownTonyBrown · #10 (**permalink**) Tue May 13, 2003, 09:30am

Even more important than the appeal rule is common sense here...

As an umpire don't make a call that no one else knows what is going on. If F3 is casually throwing the ball back to F1 and the Plate Umpire comes up selling a great big out call... Everyone will be wondering what the heck was that?

Be ready to make the call... upon proper appeal. But if you make it without being requested and no one understands what you are calling... one of the coaches is going to be screaming... and one is going to be laughing at you. Fans and players will be confused. And you will have put yourself in the hotseat.

Don't make that call unless a proper appeal is made.

greymule · #11 (**permalink**) Tue May 13, 2003, 12:49pm

Keep in mind that what is commonly called the "accidental appeal" in Fed baseball is more accurately the "accidental force play." It applies when a missed base being "accidentally" tagged is one to which a runner was forced, or when a runner is "accidentally" tagged after missing a base to which he was forced. Example: BR hits a ball off the fence, misses 1B, and slides in safe at 3B. F5 nonchalantly tags him. BR would be out on the accidental force play (even though he was technically not forced at 1B). However, if BR had missed 2B, F5's tag would have no bearing.

In Fed (and every other code that I know of), an appeal of a runner leaving too soon cannot be "accidental."

I can't remember whether or not the accidental force play applies in Fed softball. I seem to think it does not, but I could be wrong.

[Edited by greymule on May 13th, 2003 at 04:12 PM]

ChampaignBlue · #12 (**permalink**) Tue May 13, 2003, 01:12pm

I had the play last year where R1 at 1st, no outs, ball hits pitchers foot on the fly and goes directly to 1st baseman who was standing on the bag when he caught it. I, as plate ump called B2 out while R1 slid into 2nd. From the dugout I hear "that ball didn't hit the ground, appeal 1st" to which my partner asked me if it was a flyout, I said yes he called R1 out. Offense goes nuts, why didn't I call the flyball so their guy would have had a chance to tag up? I pointed out that it was caught ON 1st, at least this way the defense needed to be paying attention to get both outs. I don't give accidental appeals, it's called an appeal you have to make an appeal.

Roger Greene · #13 (**permalink**) Tue May 13, 2003, 02:33pm

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule

I can't remember whether or not the accidental force play applies in Fed softball. I seem to think it does not, but I could be wrong.

You are correct. Fed baseball is the only code to have that idiotic interpertation.

Roger Greene

CecilOne · #14 (**permalink**) Wed May 14, 2003, 10:16am

Quote:

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
(1) "by the fielders actions, the appeal can be made " is called a "live ball appeal" (any fielder).
No. It is a live ball appeal because the ball is live! Both a request and an action is requred. The request can be either physical or verbal or both. The action must be physical (tag the base or the runner). If the player demands the ball and runs over and tags the base and looks at me, I can assume an appeal. I still prefer verbal "Blue, appealing that she left early" so I am not guessing intent.

(2) "verbally appealing" is called a "dead ball appeal" so obviously the ball must be dead (no outfielders).
Well - - - it a dead ball appeal because the ball is dead. No physical action is required, only a verbal request.

In these, I was merely categorizing what he described, to help him with terminology. Maybe I should have said "is in the live ball appeal category or dead ball appeal category". Obviously, the diff is whether the ball is live or dead, and the actions are merely what the players do in each category.

Quote:

Originally posted by WestMichBlue

No, no, no. Read definition of appeal: "A play on which the umpire does not make a ruling unless requested by a coach or player. A causal or accidental tag IS NOT a request. NO request, you have NO ruling.

WMB

ASA POE 1.B says "an appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder in possession of the ball touching the base ... ". Why isn't that a request? We certainly treat it as such in most cases.

Thank you for the awakening and the coffee offer. I accept the interpretation by you and others and will wait for a signal or verbal request in the future, even though I personally don't find it in the books.

Dakota · #15 (**permalink**) Wed May 14, 2003, 10:37am

Quote:

Originally posted by CecilOne
... will wait for a signal or verbal request in the future, even though I personally don't find it in the books.

Cecil,

Perhaps I am reading you in a more general sense than you intend, but I will only look for something apart from physical act of the live ball appeal only if the fielder's act is ambiguous as to whether an appeal was being made. The "request" can be the simple tag, but if there is doubt as to why the fielder is tagging the runner or touching the base, I'll wait for some other form of "request" to clarify the fielders intent.