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Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 11:57am
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I'm not sure if anyone can help me or not. I'm involved in an online game that involves a lot of sports questions. One of this week's questions involves a hypothetical call in a basketball game. Since my team knows very little about basketball, I thought I'd ask you...the experts.

Ok, here's the information I was given:

Situation 1
Sport: Basketball
Type: A competition match, but it’s mixed, plus it’s a “social” game. Very low intensity, but the two sides are trying to win.

Mid way through the first #11 Blue (6’6’’ male, 210 pounds) takes the ball in the backcourt and proceeds to start dribbling it and sprinting with it (I stress that, sprinting). #4 Red (5’ female, 130 pounds), sees an oppurtunity to pick up a charge foul and runs into the backcourt and set herself up in legal guarding position, in the path of 11 Blue.

11 Blue does not see her until the last split second. Massive contact is made and 4 Red is sent flying half way across the court. She was in legal guarding position when the severe contact was made (in the backcourt). 4 Red is unhurt but annoyed with what has occurred and proceeds to pick up the ball and throw it, using full force, into 11 Blue. Hitting him in the stomach.

11 Blue did not see 4 Red until the very last split second and could not have avoided the contact.

So what did the ref call?

The team seems divided on our options. Obviously #11 gets a charging call. But what do with little #4? Flagrant foul? Can you call a personal foul after the whistle blows for the charging call and the ball is technically no longer in play? Technical foul? Can you call her for both? And what's a "double technical" and does it apply here?

I'd appreciate any help you can give.

Kris
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Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 12:23pm
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Lightbulb

OK, first you have a Player-Control Foul on #11. If what you say happen and according the to rules the player established position on the floor (this does not mean or has nothing to do with the feet being set by the way), then you have a PC foul.

Secondly, if I have a player that comes up and throws something at another player, reguardless of what kind of contact was created by the #11, I am giving #4 a flagrant foul and throwing them out of the game. It does not matter what kind of action #11 did, if #4 retaliates in any way, #4 is gone from the game. And #11 would be ejected too, if she did something to retaliate. You cannot give double technicals unless both do something that warrants that on an individual basis. So because one player actions get out of line, you cannot just penalize the other player because one person got upset.

Hope that answers you question
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 12:23pm
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Whether he saw the other player or not and the fact one is male and one is female is irrelevant. From the description it should be a player control foul .

As far as the ball being thrown, flagrant is in the eye of the beholder. I would say at minimum a T would be issued, but unless the ball was thrown at another player’s head or an official, realistically it would probably not be called flagrant.

By book definition, I suppose it should be flagrant, but there are times when the book is not reality. Throwing a ball is not a simple as throwing a punch.
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Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 12:27pm
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Thanks for the information. Just a couple of question. Lets pretend for a minute that I know NOTHING about basketball. What exactly is a player control foul? And if the ref decided that the ball throwing was flagrant, could he call that on top of the technical foul or instead of? If it's not flagrant, would it just be a personal foul?/ With or without the technical attached?

And just to make it really interesting, the person involved in playing in Australia. Anybody know if the rules are the same over there?

Kris
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Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 12:44pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by trainerkg
Thanks for the information. Just a couple of question. Lets pretend for a minute that I know NOTHING about basketball. What exactly is a player control foul? And if the ref decided that the ball throwing was flagrant, could he call that on top of the technical foul or instead of? If it's not flagrant, would it just be a personal foul?/ With or without the technical attached?

And just to make it really interesting, the person involved in playing in Australia. Anybody know if the rules are the same over there?

Kris
A player control foul is a common foul committed by the player who has control of the ball. It can be charging, as described in your play, or it can be a push or any illegal movement designed to give the player an advantage.

The call on #4 is a flagrant technical foul. If the official ruled that the foul was not flagrant, then it would simply be a technical foul. I would call a flagrant technical foul.

When down under, one is probably playing by FIBA rules, unless the Aussie Pro League has different rules.
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Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 12:50pm
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For Australia, you will need to find someone who knows feeble rules. I am sure one of our Canuck brethren can enlighten us on the finer points of those rules.

But here in the USA, the most basic way to define a player control foul is just that, a common foul committed by a player in control of the ball.

As far as a flagrant foul, let’s break down fouls. In your situation we have common and technical fouls. Both can be flagrant, however, in this case a flagrant technical is what would probably be issued. The flagrant designation simply means that the foul was so severe and immediate disqualification is required. Why would it be a T in this case? Throwing the ball at someone is an unsportsmanlike action and there is no common foul for that, just the T.
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Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 12:52pm
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So does a flagrant technical fould mean she's automatically booted from the game? Or is that at the ref's discretion?
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Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 12:57pm
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any flagrant foul gets you pine time for the rest of the game.
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Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 01:04pm
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Thanks everybody! You've all been very helpful. I think I've got my answer together now. The point of the game is to figure out what the call was and why.

I'm going with the personal control foul on # 11 for charging. That seems like a no-brainer. For #4, it appears I get to choose between technical and flagrant technical, the diffrence being severity and ejection from the game. I'm choosing the latter. Although I feel for the girl (I too am a 5'4" girl who would hate to get tossed by a 6'0" brute), the original scenario says she "sees an oppurtunity to pick up a charge foul and runs into the backcourt and set herself up in legal guarding position" which means she knew it was coming and basically asked for it. The fact that it was more violent than she hoped wasn't anybody's fault and her reaction was way out of line. Thus the flagrant technical foul. Does this seem reasonable?
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Old Mon Apr 09, 2001, 01:08pm
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Yes.
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Old Wed Apr 18, 2001, 10:25am
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Since FIBA rules were mentioned, I add my 2 cent (of Euro, of course) reply.

First of all we have a team control foul for #11. Then comes a technical foul for #4; the referee has
to choose whether this is disqualifying or not.

Under FIBA rules the fact that the ball is dead or alive has no influence on the type of foul one can call. In this case, since there is no personal contact, the foul is technical.

The game will resume with two free throws for #4 (or her substitute, if she was ejected for the DF) and a throw in for #4's team at middle line.

Ciao

Enrico (from Italy)
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Old Wed Apr 18, 2001, 01:00pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by eg-italy
[B]Since FIBA rules were mentioned, I add my 2 cent (of Euro, of course) reply.
Question:
What's the conversion rate on his 2 cents? "Talk amoungst yourselves"
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Old Wed Apr 18, 2001, 03:33pm
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Cool

I believe you meant to say that #11 Team will have 2 free throws coming for the Technical on #4 (girl), and then throw-in at Mid-court.
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Old Wed Apr 18, 2001, 05:10pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Brost
I believe you meant to say that #11 Team will have 2 free throws coming for the Technical on #4 (girl), and then throw-in at Mid-court.
Dave,

With FIBA rules, who the hell knows? He may be right!

TH
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Old Wed Apr 18, 2001, 06:03pm
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Just to add my $0.02 - I don't think that I would throw her out. A 5'0" 130lbs girl throwing a ball at a 6'6" 210lbs guy that just ran over her? Even at "full force"?

I say PC foul on the guy and then Technical on the girl for unsportsmanlike conduct.

I don't know that I would dump the player even if he was a similarly-sized guy. I don't necessarily think that throwing the ball at another player is flagrant. It certainly could be, but not necessarily.
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