What's Wrong with this Ball..

[Splute]

Originally Posted by Da Official

The ball was fine...the player lost control of the dribble and the ball naturally started bouncing lower and lower. He tried to keep the dribble going but it died on him.

I'm curious about the statement, can you elaborate?

"...hitting the ball with a closed hand does not necessarily constitute a violation of the rule regarding hitting the ball with fist."

We are allowed to start a dribble by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor. A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats ( intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)).... I do not see where the "stike" has to be with an open hand. Therefore I believe a player is allowed to use the bottom of a closed hand or even the back of the hand to dribble. I believe rule 9-4 relates to intentionally hitting the ball with the fist, as in a punch motion.

[Da Official]

Originally Posted by Splute

We are allowed to start a dribble by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor. A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats ( intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)).... I do not see where the "stike" has to be with an open hand. Therefore I believe a player is allowed to use the bottom of a closed hand or even the back of the hand to dribble. I believe rule 9-4 relates to intentionally hitting the ball with the fist, as in a punch motion.

I've read Rule 4-15-1 about dribbling, but doesn't Rule 9-4 make it clear that a player cannot hit the ball with a fist?

Rule 4-15-1 states “A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

Rule 9-4 states “A player shall not travel with the ball, intentionally kick it, strike it with the fist or cause it to enter and pass through the basket from below.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Splute

We are allowed to start a dribble by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor. A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats ( intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)).... I do not see where the "stike" has to be with an open hand. Therefore I believe a player is allowed to use the bottom of a closed hand or even the back of the hand to dribble. I believe rule 9-4 relates to intentionally hitting the ball with the fist, as in a punch motion.

If there are other players around when A1 tries to reconstitute his dribble, I'd call it. The OP has him hitting it with his fist, intentionally. I'm not sure how you think this doesn't qualify. If fits, but is generally only applied when safety is an issue.

[Adam]

BTW, if I was the defensive coach in this scenario, I'd be pissed...

...that my players didn't pick it up before it stopped bouncing.

[Mark Padgett]

When I started officiating, we had a lot of trouble with the basketballs. Sometimes the laces would start to unravel, and sometimes the ball would bet a big gash in it from striking the lip of the peach basket.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

When I started officiating, we had a lot of trouble with the basketballs. Sometimes the laces would start to unravel, and sometimes the ball would bet a big gash in it from striking the lip of the peach basket.

I believe you to...

[Amesman]

Before the embers go cold here (or before I'm fully awake, I guess), I'd like to get clarification on what I thought was the crux of No. 1 in the OP.

What is the ramification, if any, if A1 is dribbling and either loses control of the ball or just "closes down" on it so his hand is ultimately sitting on top of a non-moving ball. May he a) slap down on it with open hand to bring his dribble back to life or b) punch/fist it back up to a dribble again? (Note: It has nothing to do with a defective ball, and the player has not yet picked up the ball or put his hand under it.)

[Da Official]

Originally Posted by Amesman

Before the embers go cold here (or before I'm fully awake, I guess), I'd like to get clarification on what I thought was the crux of No. 1 in the OP.

What is the ramification, if any, if A1 is dribbling and either loses control of the ball or just "closes down" on it so his hand is ultimately sitting on top of a non-moving ball. May he a) slap down on it with open hand to bring his dribble back to life or b) punch/fist it back up to a dribble again? (Note: It has nothing to do with a defective ball, and the player has not yet picked up the ball or put his hand under it.)

Amesman, that is the crux.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

When I started officiating, we had a lot of trouble with the basketballs. Sometimes the laces would start to unravel, and sometimes the ball would bet a big gash in it from striking the lip of the peach basket.

What was the ball stuffed with?

[Splute]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If there are other players around when A1 tries to reconstitute his dribble, I'd call it. The OP has him hitting it with his fist, intentionally. I'm not sure how you think this doesn't qualify. If fits, but is generally only applied when safety is an issue.

I do not believe that is the intent of the rule. we see players bat the ball (with side of fist) to their teammates after a goal all night long; do you call the violation for that? No, of course not. However, if during a rebound or loose ball scrum, a player used his fist to volley the ball down court, then it applies. I simply do not believe contact with a closed hand consititutes a violation, in my judgment.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Splute

I do not believe that is the intent of the rule. we see players bat the ball (with side of fist) to their teammates after a goal all night long; do you call the violation for that? No, of course not. However, if during a rebound or loose ball scrum, a player used his fist to volley the ball down court, then it applies. I simply do not believe contact with a closed hand consititutes a violation, in my judgment.

Really? The rule is with the kick rule, and simply says striking the ball with a fist; just like it says striking the ball with a foot is a violation. Same wording, same intent.

FWIW, I never see players use their fists to pass a live ball.

You know why you don't call this or see it called? The ball is dead. You can't call a violation during a dead ball.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Really? The rule is with the kick rule, and simply says striking the ball with a fist; just like it says striking the ball with a foot is a violation. Same wording, same intent.

FWIW, I never see players use their fists to pass a live ball.

You know why you don't call this or see it called? The ball is dead. You can't call a violation during a dead ball.

Lol, very true Snaqs, it is dead, Im afraid I didnt put enough thought into that comment. However, I do not see simply dribbling the ball with a closed hand to be the same as intentionally kicking or intentionally careeming the ball with a fist, in an attempt to gain an advantage. Both of these instances may give the player an advantage and considered unsporting. Simply starting a dribble with a closed hand or dribbling the ball with a closed hand does not give the dribbler an advantage (imo); perhaps even a disadvantage. Just my opinion. But i have never seen either in a game; just at the park. Thanks for the discussion.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Splute

Lol, very true Snaqs, it is dead, Im afraid I didnt put enough thought into that comment. However, I do not see simply dribbling the ball with a closed hand to be the same as intentionally kicking or intentionally careeming the ball with a fist, in an attempt to gain an advantage. Both of these instances may give the player an advantage and considered unsporting. Simply starting a dribble with a closed hand or dribbling the ball with a closed hand does not give the dribbler an advantage (imo); perhaps even a disadvantage. Just my opinion. But i have never seen either in a game; just at the park. Thanks for the discussion.

You're right, I've never seen it either, and I've never heard of it being called in this situation. I did see a girls swing for the ball once and miss, hitting the player with the ball. I called a foul (should have gone intentional) and the coach started to whine about touch fouls and crap. I walked over to him and explained (not so calmly, I'm afraid) that his player had just hit the opponent with a fist while trying to hit the ball.

I learned two lessons on that play.

Back to the point. A player starting or continuing a dribble with a fist fits the letter of this rule, and in most cases, violations are not determined with advantage/disadvantage. However, this is not one you want to be calling 5 times a year; it's about as rare as the T for faking being fouled.