Requirement or Courtesy?

[mick]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Just curious, what is Rule 2, Section 11 labeled?

Rule❒2 Officials and Their Duties

SECTION 1 GAME AND TABLE OFFICIALS

ART. 1 . . .

The official’s uniform shall be a black-and-white striped shirt, black

pants, entirely black shoes and black socks.

ART. 2 . . .

The game officials shall be a referee and an umpire or a referee and

two umpires who shall be assisted by an official timer and scorer.

ART. 3 . . .

The scorer and timer shall be located at the scorer’s and timer’s

table on the side of the court. It is recommended that the official scorer and timer

be seated next to each other.

SECTION 11 SCORER’S DUTIES

The scorer shall:

ART. 11 . . . Compare records with the visiting scorer after each goal, each foul,

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mick

SECTION 11 SCORER’S DUTIES

Since the table crew is considered part of the officiating crew, I took care of the rest and highlighted my answer.

Maybe many officials still operate under the assumption it is their duty to inform the coaches, and perhaps many coaches still operate under the assumption that the officials have to give them this information. If it is widely done that way in your area, then, of course, you do not want to be the maverick that does it differently.

But, as Mark pointed out, having the official inform the coach is only required under NCAA rules; it is part of the scorer's duties under NFHS rules. It seems as though this falls under the same category as counting players before putting the ball in play. If a team has too many players on the court, we might be able to prevent it if we have the chance, but it is not our fault if it needs to be penalized. The same way it not our fault if a player fouls out and we didn't tell the coach that player had 4 fouls before then...

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Since the table crew is considered part of the officiating crew, I took care of the rest and highlighted my answer.

Maybe many officials still operate under the assumption it is their duty to inform the coaches, and perhaps many coaches still operate under the assumption that the officials have to give them this information. If it is widely done that way in your area, then, of course, you do not want to be the maverick that does it differently.

But, as Mark pointed out, having the official inform the coach is only required under NCAA rules; it is part of the scorer's duties under NFHS rules. It seems as though this falls under the same category as counting players before putting the ball in play. If a team has too many players on the court, we might be able to prevent it if we have the chance, but it is not our fault if it needs to be penalized. The same way it not our fault if a player fouls out and we didn't tell the coach that player had 4 fouls before then...

M&M:

Red Question: What information do you mean? That the team has no more "free" timeouts left, or the number of "free" timeouts the team has left?

Blue Statement: With regard to informing a team that it does not have any more "free" timeouts left, the duties of the Officials and the Scorer are the same under both NFHS and NCAA Rules. The Article (NFHS R2-S11-A6 and NCAA R2-S9-A9) pertaining to the Scorer's duties pre-dates the NHFS and NCAA Rules Committees, going back to the days of the National Basketball Committee of the United States and Canada. NCAA R2-S7-A15 was added as a clarification to accompany NCAA R2-S9-A9.

The fact is that it has always (my apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) been an Official's duty to inform a team when it has used its last "free" timeout. And that the only way that this can be done is when the Scorer notifies an Official that a team has used its last "free" timeout.

MTD, Sr.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Red Question: What information do you mean? That the team has no more "free" timeouts left, or the number of "free" timeouts the team has left?

I've gotten the impression it is the number of TO's left (3, 2, 1), rather than simply they have used their last "free" TO.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Blue Statement: With regard to informing a team that it does not have any more "free" timeouts left, the duties of the Officials and the Scorer are the same under both NFHS and NCAA Rules. The Article (NFHS R2-S11-A6 and NCAA R2-S9-A9) pertaining to the Scorer's duties pre-dates the NHFS and NCAA Rules Committees, going back to the days of the National Basketball Committee of the United States and Canada. NCAA R2-S7-A15 was added as a clarification to accompany NCAA R2-S9-A9.

The fact is that it has always (my apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) been an Official's duty to inform a team when it has used its last "free" timeout. And that the only way that this can be done is when the Scorer notifies an Official that a team has used its last "free" timeout.

Actually, I thought they read differently. First of all, in both rule sets, the scorer and timer are officials, or more specifically, part of the officiating crew. That's why their duties are listed in the same section. In NFHS, the floor officials' duties are listed in 2-4 thru 2-10, and the scorer's duties are listed in 2-11. The only place notification of TO's is listed is under 2-11-6. If it was specifically a floor official's duty, it would also be listed somewhere in 2-4 thru 2-10. However, as you pointed out, in NCAA rules it is listed under the floor official's duties, as well as the scorer's duties, that the officials shall notify a coach when they have taken their last allowable TO. So there is a difference between the two rule sets.

So, when the scorer tells me a team has used their last allotted TO, I will tell the coach. If they tell me the team has one full and one 30 left, I'll say thank you, and probably even relay that info to my partner(s). That's info that is good for the crew to know; perhaps we need to watch for a request in a tight situation. But I will not tell the coach that info. To me, that's no different than telling a coach two of his players have 4 fouls. That borders on me "coaching", or giving them information they are responsible for knowing. What if I give them wrong information? That is between the scorer and the coach, and our only responsibility in either instance is to let them know when they have none left.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I've gotten the impression it is the number of TO's left (3, 2, 1), rather than simply they have used their last "free" TO.


Actually, I thought they read differently. First of all, in both rule sets, the scorer and timer are officials, or more specifically, part of the officiating crew. That's why their duties are listed in the same section. In NFHS, the floor officials' duties are listed in 2-4 thru 2-10, and the scorer's duties are listed in 2-11. The only place notification of TO's is listed is under 2-11-6. If it was specifically a floor official's duty, it would also be listed somewhere in 2-4 thru 2-10. However, as you pointed out, in NCAA rules it is listed under the floor official's duties, as well as the scorer's duties, that the officials shall notify a coach when they have taken their last allowable TO. So there is a difference between the two rule sets.

So, when the scorer tells me a team has used their last allotted TO, I will tell the coach. If they tell me the team has one full and one 30 left, I'll say thank you, and probably even relay that info to my partner(s). That's info that is good for the crew to know; perhaps we need to watch for a request in a tight situation. But I will not tell the coach that info. To me, that's no different than telling a coach two of his players have 4 fouls. That borders on me "coaching", or giving them information they are responsible for knowing. What if I give them wrong information? That is between the scorer and the coach, and our only responsibility in either instance is to let them know when they have none left.

M&M:

Go back and read Rule 2 in both the NCAA and NFHS rules books. The word "Official(s)" is used it is to denote the R and U or R, U1 and U2; it is not used to denote the Scorer and the Timer. You have missed my point: Both NCAA and NFHS Rules specifically state that the Scorer shall notify a team when it has used its last timeout, and that the Scorer shall do this by notifying an Official who shall then notify the team. The NFHS calls this out in R2-S11-A6, while the NCAA calls this out in R2-S7-A15 and R2-S9-A9. Sometime after the NBCUSC split into the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees, the NCAA split NFHS R2-S11-A6 into NCAA R2-S7-A15 and R2-S9-A9, but the results are the same.

MTD, Sr.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Go back and read Rule 2 in both the NCAA and NFHS rules books. The word "Official(s)" is used it is to denote the R and U or R, U1 and U2; it is not used to denote the Scorer and the Timer.

Mark, I certainly don't want you to invoke the ghost of J. Dallas Shirley to chase me around, but I will ask you to go look at the very start of Rule 2 in both codes. In NFHS, 2-1 denotes both the "Game and Table Officials". In NCAA, Rule 2-1 is labeled, "The Officials", and Sec. 3 under that rule states "The scorers, timers, and shot clock operator shall be located at the scorers' table at courtside." So, clearly both rule sets include the table personnel as "officials".

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

You have missed my point: Both NCAA and NFHS Rules specifically state that the Scorer shall notify a team when it has used its last timeout, and that the Scorer shall do this by notifying an Official who shall then notify the team.

I don't think I've disagreed with this point; in fact, I agree. However, I was simply pointing out a slight difference in the two rule sets, in that in NFHS, under the specific duties listed for the floor officials (2-4 thru 2-10), there is no mention of the TO notification. The only mention is under the Scorer's duties, 2-11, where the the scorer is required to notify the coach through an official. However, under NCAA rules, it is listed both under the floor officials' duties (2-7-15), as well as under the scorer's duties (2-9-9).

So, if we wanted to be really picky, the only difference would be in NFHS, if the scorer did not notify the official about the team using their last allotted TO, the official would not have to notify the team. In NCAA, it appears the official would still need to notify the team, even if the table didn't inform them. In both cases, however, we agree that if the table notifies the official, the official then notifies the team.

My point in this whole discussion is I disagree with those who want to tell the coach they still have one full and one 30 left (or any other amount other than they've used their last one). Unless, of course, that is how it is commonly done in their area, and coaches and officials both come to view this as common practice.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

My point in this whole discussion is I disagree with those who want to tell the coach they still have one full and one 30 left (or any other amount other than they've used their last one). Unless, of course, that is how it is commonly done in their area, and coaches and officials both come to view this as common practice.

M&M:

We are on the same page. We both agree that the Officials (R, U, U1, and U2) should not be telling a team how many timeouts it has left. No we need to get on the same paragraph. The Scorer and the Timer are part of the officiating crew, but the word "Official(s)" mean: R, U, U1, and U2. Once again go back and read Rule 2 in both codes.

MTD, Sr.