Requirement or Courtesy?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Right - that's covered in the rules.

Where is it specified in the rules to have a count just for the purpose of correcting a timing error?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Reasonably inferred from 2-11-6, for when the last timeout is taken (zero is a number):

ART. 6 . . . Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.

Just curious, what is Rule 2, Section 11 labeled?

[mick]

Originally Posted by WreckRef

I thought it was decided that it wasn't our job to notify coaches of how many TO's they had left. I believe the debate was if the table failed to notify us the coach had used his/her final TO if we would go searching for this info.

Again, at higher levels I wouldn't. However, at lower levels where you have all volunteers coaching with no assistants or volunteer assistants and untrained volunteers at the scorers table I would. Let me clarify that this is a COURTESY, not a requirement. I still believe that if the scorers table does not inform us we are not required to inform the coach. We cannot supply information that was not given to us and the rules do not state that we are supposed to seek this information out.

What would you say to a coach who, up by one point with 5 seconds on the clock, loudly asks, "Why didn't you tell me that I had no time-outs left?!!"

Why open up that possibility?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

where is it specified in the rules to have a count just for the purpose of correcting a timing error?

5-10-2

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mick

What would you say to a coach who, up by one point with 5 seconds on the clock, loudly asks, "Why didn't you tell me that I had no time-outs left?!!"

Why open up that possibility?

What would you say to a coach, who after he tells a player to foul, and finds out that was that player's 5th foul, "Why didn't you tell me that player had 4 fouls?!?"

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Common sense would tell us that a coach will be more aware of something if an official tells him. So, by increasing the chance that a coach will not unknowingly request an excessive timeout, you are improving the game from the game management point of view.

His/Her timeout-tracking process might have not recorded a TO request, for example.

Well it is common for me to deal with multiple assistant coaches. And with that reality in my life of officiating, coaches already know their status. They do not find God because an official told them.

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Do you really want to have your game end with a technical foul for calling too many timeouts?

What is so bad with having a Technical foul for this as opposed for anything else? Are you not going to call one that is requested?

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

At times you have some very good points in your posts and then other times IMO you go way out into leftfield.

Funny you say this conversation I have not ever had a major debate with anyone about this in my real world as I have on this site or the internet. Actually this happen in a camp game where I was not working and some pretty high up people took a similar position that I am here and the sky did not fall. I do not really understand why this is off the wall when people that I have worked with in high school and college from multiple states do not seem to have your position on this issue. And I can tell you that most I come in contact with are probably more indifferent than I am on this issue. I guess you will just have to learn to deal with people that disagree with you better.

Peace

[WreckRef]

2-11-6 says notify coach through official, nowhere does it say official is to go get this information.

Can we all agree that the SCORER is responsible for informing the coach, through the official when they have taken their final TO?

So if it's the scorer's responsibility to tell the official and they do not inform the official, it is a courtesy if the official finds out this information on their own to tell a coach (recommended at lower levels with unpaid volunteers coaching and at scorers table.) Nowhere does it say we are REQUIRED to do this or ever tell a coach how many TO's they have remaining.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

5-10-2

.....an officials count.......may be used.......

This means a 5 second count, a 10 second count, whatever you might have had going. I don't see it listed under officials duties to have the timers back, but most consider it wise, or even essential, to do so.

[mick]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Just curious, what is Rule 2, Section 11 labeled?

Rule❒2 Officials and Their Duties

SECTION 1 GAME AND TABLE OFFICIALS

ART. 1 . . .

The official’s uniform shall be a black-and-white striped shirt, black

pants, entirely black shoes and black socks.

ART. 2 . . .

The game officials shall be a referee and an umpire or a referee and

two umpires who shall be assisted by an official timer and scorer.

ART. 3 . . .

The scorer and timer shall be located at the scorer’s and timer’s

table on the side of the court. It is recommended that the official scorer and timer

be seated next to each other.

SECTION 11 SCORER’S DUTIES

The scorer shall:

ART. 11 . . . Compare records with the visiting scorer after each goal, each foul,

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by walter

In NCAA it is required. In the high school games I do, the Board I belong to has declared that we do NOT inform the coaches. The rationale is due to a state tournament situation a couple of years ago where the official scorer provided the wrong info to an official and subsequently, a "T" ended up being given later on when the Coach requested and was granted his last timeout when in fact he didn't have any left. After that, our Board's executive committee decided that our officials were not to notify the coach how many timeouts he/she had left.

Walter:

The NFHS Rules Book states:

Rule 2, Section 11, Scorer’s Duties
The scorer shall:
ART. 6 . . . Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and
when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.


And the NCAA Rules Book states:

Rule 2, Section 7. Officials’ Duties
During the game, officials shall:
Art. 15. Notify a team and its head coach when a team takes its final
allowable charged timeout.

Rule 2, Section 9. Duties of Scorers
The scorers shall:
Art. 9. Record the timeouts charged to each team and notify an official when
such team takes its final allowable charged timeout.


The situation at the state tournament that you describe is not any different than when the officials fail to awarded an one-and-one bonus free throws because the Scorer did not tell them that the offending team had just committed its seventh team foul of the half. Correctable errors are errors made by the game officials. The officials are supposed to notify the HC when his team has used its last timeout, but that does not mean the team does not get charged with a TF for requesting an excess time-out.

Therefore, one could take the position that officials should NOT inform a team of how many time-outs it has remaining. BUT, the rules state quite clearly that the officials MUST inform the HC when his team has used its final time-out.

MTD, Sr.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by WreckRef

I thought it was decided that it wasn't our job to notify coaches of how many TO's they had left. I believe the debate was if the table failed to notify us the coach had used his/her final TO if we would go searching for this info.

Again, at higher levels I wouldn't. However, at lower levels where you have all volunteers coaching with no assistants or volunteer assistants and untrained volunteers at the scorers table I would. Let me clarify that this is a COURTESY, not a requirement. I still believe that if the scorers table does not inform us we are not required to inform the coach. We cannot supply information that was not given to us and the rules do not state that we are supposed to seek this information out.

Isn't this situation covered in the mechanics manual?

Does the Fed not say that an official is to inform a coach when they have zero timeouts remaining? Why do you choose to not follow that mechanic? What other mechanics do you not follow? And why?

If the scorer doesn't inform us, I agree that logically we don't need to inform the coach. However, I recognize that scorekeepers often don't have the same mindset as officials do.

IMHO, the Fed has said that their wish is that coaches are informed when their last timeout was taken. The process they implemented is well-documented. I think the Fed would rather officials ask or be aware of remaining TOs than to say "we didn't know" after the fact.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess you will just have to learn to deal with people that disagree with you better.

Peace

Whatever...A player getting his 5th foul do not result in 2 points and the ball out of bounds!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Isn't this situation covered in the mechanics manual?

Does the Fed not say that an official is to inform a coach when they have zero timeouts remaining? Why do you choose to not follow that mechanic? What other mechanics do you not follow? And why?

I have said this before and I will say this again. The NF's position on any mechanics are they are not absolutes and do not need to be followed if a state, jurisdiction or association does not want to follow them. And that did not come from me that came from Mary Struckoff herself when I asked her this issue directly. The NF Manual is to give a guideline so there is some uniformity, but they know that states, organizations or boards do not follow them and they do not try to tell states how to use mechanics. Just like the NF cannot tell states how to license officials or train officials, they cannot tell states what they want their officials to do as it relates to everything from what they wear to what mechanics they use or do not use.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

If the scorer doesn't inform us, I agree that logically we don't need to inform the coach. However, I recognize that scorekeepers often don't have the same mindset as officials do.

IMHO, the Fed has said that their wish is that coaches are informed when their last timeout was taken. The process they implemented is well-documented. I think the Fed would rather officials ask or be aware of remaining TOs than to say "we didn't know" after the fact.

I do not know where you have received your information but I have never read anything that has asked officials to "find out" what the timeout situation is with teams. I have never seen any such thing suggested. All we have is a rule that is in my opinion is purposely vague. I do not see any penalty for us doing this or not doing this other than maybe someone that evaluates you to get upset about this. I have yet to find an evaluator/assignor care that much if at all.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Whatever...A player getting his 5th foul do not result in 2 points and the ball out of bounds!

So.

And a coach can count, because it is certainly true they do not allow their players to request timeouts anymore. If this is something you are worried about, be my guest. I have never worried about this and it has not hurt me at all at any level.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess you will just have to learn to deal with people that disagree with you better.

Peace

Some story about a pot and a kettle comes to mind. Details escape me.