Requirement or Courtesy?

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What are you preventing?

If they call a timeout and they do not have one I am giving a T.

Peace

Do you really want to have your game end with a technical foul for calling too many timeouts?

At times you have some very good points in your posts and then other times IMO you go way out into leftfield.

[WreckRef]

I agree with both JR's as they both have valid points.

The rules state that the table is supposed to notify the coaches through the officials so if they don't notify us when the team uses its final TO, it's not our job to go find this information out. I definitely see this in the case of upper levels where there are 1 or multiple assistant coaches.

However, I agree with the other JR that it is preventive officiating and good game management at lower levels where the coach usually doesn't have an assistant or they are just parents volunteering.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Do you really want to have your game end with a technical foul for calling too many timeouts?

At times you have some very good points in your posts and then other times IMO you go way out into leftfield.

Hey, save the baseball references for the baseball thread. (Espcially since the first spring training games are today...whoo hoo!)

Anyway, he isn't in left field on this one. Look again at 2-11-6. It is the scorer's responsibility to notify the coaches (through the officials) they have taken their last TO. It is not the official's job to notify the coaches. Yes, we can know this information. Yes, we can relay this information when the scorer tells us. Yes, we can do it as a courtesy. But it is not our job to tell coaches how many TO's they have left. It is also not our job to prevent calling a T for an excessive TO request when it happens. If a team or coach requests too many TO's, it is possible they might still want one knowing they have requested too many.

[just another ref]

It is the timer's job to start and stop the clock. But we observe the clock and have a count to help the situation if he fails to do so correctly.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

It is the timer's job to start and stop the clock. But we observe the clock and have a count to help the situation if he fails to do so correctly.

Right - that's covered in the rules.

Where is it in the rules that it is the official's job to notify coachs the number of TO's they have left?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Right - that's covered in the rules.

Where is it in the rules that it is the official's job to notify coachs the number of TO's they have left?

Reasonably inferred from 2-11-6, for when the last timeout is taken (zero is a number):

ART. 6 . . . Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Reasonably inferred from 2-11-6, for when the last timeout is taken (zero is a number):

ART. 6 . . . Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.

Just curious, what is Rule 2, Section 11 labeled?

[WreckRef]

2-11-6 says notify coach through official, nowhere does it say official is to go get this information.

Can we all agree that the SCORER is responsible for informing the coach, through the official when they have taken their final TO?

So if it's the scorer's responsibility to tell the official and they do not inform the official, it is a courtesy if the official finds out this information on their own to tell a coach (recommended at lower levels with unpaid volunteers coaching and at scorers table.) Nowhere does it say we are REQUIRED to do this or ever tell a coach how many TO's they have remaining.

[mick]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Just curious, what is Rule 2, Section 11 labeled?

Rule❒2 Officials and Their Duties

SECTION 1 GAME AND TABLE OFFICIALS

ART. 1 . . .

The official’s uniform shall be a black-and-white striped shirt, black

pants, entirely black shoes and black socks.

ART. 2 . . .

The game officials shall be a referee and an umpire or a referee and

two umpires who shall be assisted by an official timer and scorer.

ART. 3 . . .

The scorer and timer shall be located at the scorer’s and timer’s

table on the side of the court. It is recommended that the official scorer and timer

be seated next to each other.

SECTION 11 SCORER’S DUTIES

The scorer shall:

ART. 11 . . . Compare records with the visiting scorer after each goal, each foul,

[WreckRef]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Right - that's covered in the rules.

Where is it in the rules that it is the official's job to notify coachs the number of TO's they have left?

I thought it was decided that it wasn't our job to notify coaches of how many TO's they had left. I believe the debate was if the table failed to notify us the coach had used his/her final TO if we would go searching for this info.

Again, at higher levels I wouldn't. However, at lower levels where you have all volunteers coaching with no assistants or volunteer assistants and untrained volunteers at the scorers table I would. Let me clarify that this is a COURTESY, not a requirement. I still believe that if the scorers table does not inform us we are not required to inform the coach. We cannot supply information that was not given to us and the rules do not state that we are supposed to seek this information out.

[mick]

Originally Posted by WreckRef

I thought it was decided that it wasn't our job to notify coaches of how many TO's they had left. I believe the debate was if the table failed to notify us the coach had used his/her final TO if we would go searching for this info.

Again, at higher levels I wouldn't. However, at lower levels where you have all volunteers coaching with no assistants or volunteer assistants and untrained volunteers at the scorers table I would. Let me clarify that this is a COURTESY, not a requirement. I still believe that if the scorers table does not inform us we are not required to inform the coach. We cannot supply information that was not given to us and the rules do not state that we are supposed to seek this information out.

What would you say to a coach who, up by one point with 5 seconds on the clock, loudly asks, "Why didn't you tell me that I had no time-outs left?!!"

Why open up that possibility?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mick

What would you say to a coach who, up by one point with 5 seconds on the clock, loudly asks, "Why didn't you tell me that I had no time-outs left?!!"

Why open up that possibility?

What would you say to a coach, who after he tells a player to foul, and finds out that was that player's 5th foul, "Why didn't you tell me that player had 4 fouls?!?"

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by WreckRef

I thought it was decided that it wasn't our job to notify coaches of how many TO's they had left. I believe the debate was if the table failed to notify us the coach had used his/her final TO if we would go searching for this info.

Again, at higher levels I wouldn't. However, at lower levels where you have all volunteers coaching with no assistants or volunteer assistants and untrained volunteers at the scorers table I would. Let me clarify that this is a COURTESY, not a requirement. I still believe that if the scorers table does not inform us we are not required to inform the coach. We cannot supply information that was not given to us and the rules do not state that we are supposed to seek this information out.

Isn't this situation covered in the mechanics manual?

Does the Fed not say that an official is to inform a coach when they have zero timeouts remaining? Why do you choose to not follow that mechanic? What other mechanics do you not follow? And why?

If the scorer doesn't inform us, I agree that logically we don't need to inform the coach. However, I recognize that scorekeepers often don't have the same mindset as officials do.

IMHO, the Fed has said that their wish is that coaches are informed when their last timeout was taken. The process they implemented is well-documented. I think the Fed would rather officials ask or be aware of remaining TOs than to say "we didn't know" after the fact.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Isn't this situation covered in the mechanics manual?

Does the Fed not say that an official is to inform a coach when they have zero timeouts remaining? Why do you choose to not follow that mechanic? What other mechanics do you not follow? And why?

I have said this before and I will say this again. The NF's position on any mechanics are they are not absolutes and do not need to be followed if a state, jurisdiction or association does not want to follow them. And that did not come from me that came from Mary Struckoff herself when I asked her this issue directly. The NF Manual is to give a guideline so there is some uniformity, but they know that states, organizations or boards do not follow them and they do not try to tell states how to use mechanics. Just like the NF cannot tell states how to license officials or train officials, they cannot tell states what they want their officials to do as it relates to everything from what they wear to what mechanics they use or do not use.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

If the scorer doesn't inform us, I agree that logically we don't need to inform the coach. However, I recognize that scorekeepers often don't have the same mindset as officials do.

IMHO, the Fed has said that their wish is that coaches are informed when their last timeout was taken. The process they implemented is well-documented. I think the Fed would rather officials ask or be aware of remaining TOs than to say "we didn't know" after the fact.

I do not know where you have received your information but I have never read anything that has asked officials to "find out" what the timeout situation is with teams. I have never seen any such thing suggested. All we have is a rule that is in my opinion is purposely vague. I do not see any penalty for us doing this or not doing this other than maybe someone that evaluates you to get upset about this. I have yet to find an evaluator/assignor care that much if at all.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Right - that's covered in the rules.

Where is it specified in the rules to have a count just for the purpose of correcting a timing error?