Requirement or Courtesy?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Some story about a pot and a kettle comes to mind. Details escape me.

No, I actually have no problem disagreeing with people. I do not even take it personally (like some). There is nothing you or anyone is going to say to me that will change my basic position on this or other issues. If I did worried about disagreeing with people, then I would have never stated my opinion early on in this thread. It is kind of hard to accuse someone of worrying about disagreement when that very person was the first person in this thread to display disagreement. I could have taken the easy road and said nothing.

Then again I do not take these conversations as being that deep.

Peace

[deecee]

is this another one of those dead horses that we keep beating?

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Do you really want to have your game end with a technical foul for calling too many timeouts?

At times you have some very good points in your posts and then other times IMO you go way out into leftfield.

No, I'd prefer the game ended without it, just the same as I'd prefer not having to issue T to coach running on the floor, a player dropping an F bomb, a fight, an intentional foul, etc. to end a game. Do you let coaches know how many fouls are on each player should he decide to foul in last minute of a tight game and doesn't want to lose his point guard? Do you advise him with only .02 seconds he can't catch and shoot?

It's just not our job to keep track of their timeouts, plain and simple. If you prefer to assist coaches, go for it.

I've never had a coach ask me how many timeouts they have left. Why, because they know it's not my responsibility.

[WreckRef]

Originally Posted by deecee

is this another one of those dead horses that we keep beating?

Agreed, this horse is shot, dead and now glue. Next topic please.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mick

SECTION 11 SCORER’S DUTIES

Since the table crew is considered part of the officiating crew, I took care of the rest and highlighted my answer.

Maybe many officials still operate under the assumption it is their duty to inform the coaches, and perhaps many coaches still operate under the assumption that the officials have to give them this information. If it is widely done that way in your area, then, of course, you do not want to be the maverick that does it differently.

But, as Mark pointed out, having the official inform the coach is only required under NCAA rules; it is part of the scorer's duties under NFHS rules. It seems as though this falls under the same category as counting players before putting the ball in play. If a team has too many players on the court, we might be able to prevent it if we have the chance, but it is not our fault if it needs to be penalized. The same way it not our fault if a player fouls out and we didn't tell the coach that player had 4 fouls before then...

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by fullor30

No, I'd prefer the game ended without it, just the same as I'd prefer not having to issue T to coach running on the floor getting a T, a player dropping an F bomb, a fight, an intentional foul, to end a game.

It's just not our job to keep track of their timeouts, plain and simple. If you prefer to assist coaches, go for it.

Is it so hard as you go over to get the team out of a timeout to just "remind" the coach that he has 1 or 0 timeouts left? I do not think so.

[mick]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

What would you say to a coach, who after he tells a player to foul, and finds out that was that player's 5th foul, "Why didn't you tell me that player had 4 fouls?!?"

Uh Coach, .... now you have 15 seconds to replace him.

[walter]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Walter, there is no requirement in either the FED or NCAA to notify coaches how many T-O's they have remaining. The requirement is to inform coaches when their team has 0 (zero) remaining; that goes for both rules sets.

Correct, good clarification. thanks.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Is it so hard as you go over to get the team out of a timeout to just "remind" the coach that he has 1 or 0 timeouts left? I do not think so.

No one said it was hard. There are just people that feel life is not going to hell in a hand basket if it is not done. There are a lot of things we do as officials that are required and there are many things we do that are required. I do not see this as an essential part of my job and no one I have ever come in contact with really cares about this other than people on this site. And if the coaches I deal with do not seem to put me with this kind of ultimate responsibility, I certainly am not going to care if I give a T for telling them or not. BTW, if a request for a timeout is made, I am giving the T no matter how they find out. I am not looking the other way. And I am certainly not getting upset if this happens. Just because you tell a coach something, does not mean a player will not have a brain fart and still request a timeout.

Peace

[Forksref]

In a close game, during a TO, I check with the scorer how many TO's each team has and inform the coaches, usually an asst. coach on the outside of the huddle.

I have no problem considering this a good thing to do. I guess I am not as "officious" and hard-headed as some officials.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Is it so hard as you go over to get the team out of a timeout to just "remind" the coach that he has 1 or 0 timeouts left? I do not think so.

You're missing the point, and as I stated, if you like to provide this service to coaches, terrific.

That said, if I'm at the table and table says he's out, I may or may not tell coach if he's out. I'd rather not and have never discussed not doing it with partners should they choose to do so.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Forksref

In a close game, during a TO, I check with the scorer how many TO's each team has and inform the coaches, usually an asst. coach on the outside of the huddle.

I have no problem considering this a good thing to do. I guess I am not as ".

"officious" and hard-headed as some officials"

Not really, I just prefer not to do it, it's not necessary.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fullor30

"officious" and hard-headed as some officials"

Not really, I just prefer not to do it, it's not necessary.

You are only hard-headed if you are being asked to do something and you refuse. I have never been asked to do this, so I guess I did not have a choice to refuse.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

In many other sports, it's either required or a good practice to inform the coach of the number of timeouts used / remaining.

It should, imo, be the same in basketball (and I read the rule as it alreadybeing required, but to the extent the wording is "confusing" it should be clarified).

It's a mechanic though, so failure to do so doesn't relieve the coach from the ultimate responsibility.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Since the table crew is considered part of the officiating crew, I took care of the rest and highlighted my answer.

Maybe many officials still operate under the assumption it is their duty to inform the coaches, and perhaps many coaches still operate under the assumption that the officials have to give them this information. If it is widely done that way in your area, then, of course, you do not want to be the maverick that does it differently.

But, as Mark pointed out, having the official inform the coach is only required under NCAA rules; it is part of the scorer's duties under NFHS rules. It seems as though this falls under the same category as counting players before putting the ball in play. If a team has too many players on the court, we might be able to prevent it if we have the chance, but it is not our fault if it needs to be penalized. The same way it not our fault if a player fouls out and we didn't tell the coach that player had 4 fouls before then...

M&M:

Red Question: What information do you mean? That the team has no more "free" timeouts left, or the number of "free" timeouts the team has left?

Blue Statement: With regard to informing a team that it does not have any more "free" timeouts left, the duties of the Officials and the Scorer are the same under both NFHS and NCAA Rules. The Article (NFHS R2-S11-A6 and NCAA R2-S9-A9) pertaining to the Scorer's duties pre-dates the NHFS and NCAA Rules Committees, going back to the days of the National Basketball Committee of the United States and Canada. NCAA R2-S7-A15 was added as a clarification to accompany NCAA R2-S9-A9.

The fact is that it has always (my apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) been an Official's duty to inform a team when it has used its last "free" timeout. And that the only way that this can be done is when the Scorer notifies an Official that a team has used its last "free" timeout.

MTD, Sr.