The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 02:33pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 56
Timeout or not

NF I attended a state high school tournament over the weekend and have only two "complaints" about the officiating. I watched 5 games and the officiating was really good.

The two incidents are as follows:
Boys semi-final game, back and forth all game, no bad blood between teams, no coaches harassing officials, just a good game.

4th qtr, score tied, less than 15 seconds remaining, both teams OUT of timeouts. Team A has the ball in the frontcourt, directly in front of their bench, point guard dribbling, winding the clock down. Coach is standing in the box, giving him directions. Defense is back, no pressure. Ref is also right there, (three-man crew).

The coach, with about 9 seconds left, looks right at the ref and says, 'Time". He also makes a "T" signal with his hands. Ref looks at him and does nothing. Point guard (with ball) also asks for a TO. Ref again looks thru him, he decides to play on and Team A misses a shot for the win. Team B coach either did not see this or was unaware of what was going on.

Game goes into 2 OT's and Team B wins.

IMO, the ref should have given them the timeout they requested. Your opinion, please.

Next day, another game, boys third place game. Third qtr, blow out game. Near the end of the qtr, losing team A scores a fast break lay-up. The ball falls directly into the hands of a Team A player. He immediately passes the ball to the official on the endline. All of a sudden, the ref who was on the other end of the court, blows his whistle, charges up the court to the table, and issues a delay of game warning to Team A. (This game had zero complaints from fans or coaches about officiating.)

A fan about halfway up in the stands, yells, "Why don't you call your end of the court? The ref then turns, looks up in the stands, and yells "Shut up".

Completely out of line for the ref to do this, IMO. Your thoughts
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 02:45pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Wasilla Ak
Posts: 500
Grant the timeout when requested, even if you know the coach has no timeouts left.
As for the shut up, maybe that was a friend of his, and it was a joke. I would hope it was this sit., because a official should not tell someone to shut up. I have told player to shut thier mouths when trash talking starts, but I don't think I would use this on the crowd. I usually just laugh when the say anything to me. This official had it comming by making the call you described. We have all probably bown our whistle and made a call, then mentally slap ourselves because we know we just kicked it. I try to slap myself lightly so I don't bruise.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 03:22pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Houghton, U.P., Michigan
Posts: 9,953
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike51 View Post
A fan about halfway up in the stands, yells, "Why don't you call your end of the court? The ref then turns, looks up in the stands, and yells "Shut up".

Completely out of line for the ref to do this, IMO. Your thoughts
Officials Code of Ethics
Officials at an interscholastic athletic event are participants in the educational
development of high school students. As such, they must exercise a high level of selfdiscipline,
independence and responsibility. The purpose of this Code is to establish guidelines for ethical standards of conduct for all interscholastic officials.

[snip]

Officials
shall uphold the honor and dignity of the profession in all interaction with
student-athletes, coaches, athletic directors, school administrators, colleagues, and the public.


[snip]
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 03:34pm
certified Hot Mom tester
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: only in my own mind, such as it is
Posts: 12,918
Smile

Actually, I usually respond in Latin. "Fac taceas" means "just shut up" and "quare si mihi cura est" means "ask me if I care". You wouldn't believe how many coaches around here actually speak Latin. Uh, that would be zero, which is why it's so much fun.
__________________
Yom HaShoah
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 03:37pm
Fav theme: Roundball Rock
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Near Dog River (sorta)
Posts: 8,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by mick View Post
Officials Code of Ethics

Is it contrary to the COE to try to pick up a female coach?
__________________
Pope Francis
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 03:43pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Houghton, U.P., Michigan
Posts: 9,953
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
[/left]


Is it contrary to the COE to try to pick up a female coach?
It may be okay, as long as you treat the opposing coach with similar deference.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 03:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,842
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett View Post
Actually, I usually respond in Latin. "Fac taceas" means "just shut up" and "quare si mihi cura est" means "ask me if I care". You wouldn't believe how many coaches around here actually speak Latin. Uh, that would be zero, which is why it's so much fun.
Inflatus asinus............
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 03:50pm
Fav theme: Roundball Rock
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Near Dog River (sorta)
Posts: 8,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by mick View Post
It may be okay, as long as you treat the opposing coach with similar deference.
Hmm... I want to go there, and I don't want to go there.
__________________
Pope Francis
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 04:17pm
Ref Ump Welsch
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by mick View Post
Officials Code of Ethics
Officials at an interscholastic athletic event are participants in the educational
development of high school students. As such, they must exercise a high level of selfdiscipline,
independence and responsibility. The purpose of this Code is to establish guidelines for ethical standards of conduct for all interscholastic officials.

[snip]

Officials
shall uphold the honor and dignity of the profession in all interaction with
student-athletes, coaches, athletic directors, school administrators, colleagues, and the public.


[snip]
OK, who besides me felt uneasy when the snipping showed up?
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 04:35pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ohio, cincinnati
Posts: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike51 View Post
The coach, with about 9 seconds left, looks right at the ref and says, 'Time". He also makes a "T" signal with his hands. Ref looks at him and does nothing. Point guard (with ball) also asks for a TO.
The official is wrong not to grant the time out. especially since it was asked for basically three times, verbal - signal - verbal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike51 View Post
Near the end of the qtr, losing team A scores a fast break lay-up. The ball falls directly into the hands of a Team A player. He immediately passes the ball to the official on the endline. All of a sudden, the ref who was on the other end of the court, blows his whistle, charges up the court to the table, and issues a delay of game warning to Team A.

A fan about halfway up in the stands, yells, "Why don't you call your end of the court? The ref then turns, looks up in the stands, and yells "Shut up".
based on the rule: I find it hard to even make the warning here
ART. 6 . . . Delay the game by acts such as:

b. Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer official when a violation or foul is called.

While not exactly the same if the ball lands in the kids hands - giving it directly to the official would be hard to come off as delay of game.

coming from the opposite endline and engaging the fans in "conversation" will probably not be a resume builder for next year.
__________________
New and improved: if it's new it's not improved; if it's improved it's not new.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 04:53pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
While not exactly the same if the ball lands in the kids hands - giving it directly to the official would be hard to come off as delay of game.
I think it certainly could, if the new offense was trying to get the ball to get it in and push in transition, or if the scoring team was trying to set up a press. Those two or three seconds would be crucial.

In a blow out, from new Lead? Not a chance.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 05:05pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,963
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
based on the rule: I find it hard to even make the warning here
ART. 6 . . . Delay the game by acts such as:

b. Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer official when a violation or foul is called.

While not exactly the same if the ball lands in the kids hands - giving it directly to the official would be hard to come off as delay of game.

coming from the opposite endline and engaging the fans in "conversation" will probably not be a resume builder for next year.
That's not even the right rule.

Try 4-47-3.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 05:26pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ohio, cincinnati
Posts: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
That's not even the right rule.

Try 4-47-3.
Right you are except that is not what I said what I said was you can infer from this rule that giving the ball directly to an official when in your possession and the ball becomes or is dead is not delaying the game.

So what you are telling me is that in the third quarter of a blow out - if the ball comes through the basket and lands in a players hands (of the team that is losing) - and he tosses it directly to an official you are going to determine that to be delay of the game. and you are going to do it from the the new lead position?
Rule 4 Definitions
SECTION 47 WARNING FOR DELAY
ART. 3 . . . For interfering with the ball following a goal as in 10-1-5d.
Rule 10 Fouls and Penalties
SECTION 1 TEAM TECHNICAL
ART. 5 . . . Allow the game to develop into an actionless contest, this includes the following and similar acts:
d. Interfering with the ball following a goal after any team warning for delay.

this was the third quarter without any warning being given prior and how is this making it an actionless contest?
We will just have to disagree on that point.
__________________
New and improved: if it's new it's not improved; if it's improved it's not new.

Last edited by OHBBREF; Mon Feb 23, 2009 at 05:28pm.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 05:44pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,963
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
Right you are except that is not what I said what I said was you can infer from this rule that giving the ball directly to an official when in your possession and the ball becomes or is dead is not delaying the game.
There is no need to infer anything as there is a rule actually requiring a player to pass the ball to an official WHEN A WHISTLE BLOWS or it is a technical foul. That's 10-1-5b.
Since this situation isn't after a whistle, but just after a made goal, the individual delay provisions and the team actionless contest rule don't apply. Only the team delay provision has merit here. The actionless contest rule would kick in when a team repeats one of those four actions.
That's why I wrote that you were quoting the wrong rule. No other rule can even come into consideration in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
So what you are telling me is that in the third quarter of a blow out - if the ball comes through the basket and lands in a players hands (of the team that is losing) - and he tosses it directly to an official you are going to determine that to be delay of the game. and you are going to do it from the the new lead position?
Rule 4 Definitions
SECTION 47 WARNING FOR DELAY
ART. 3 . . . For interfering with the ball following a goal as in 10-1-5d.
Rule 10 Fouls and Penalties
SECTION 1 TEAM TECHNICAL
ART. 5 . . . Allow the game to develop into an actionless contest, this includes the following and similar acts:
d. Interfering with the ball following a goal after any team warning for delay.
The official is perfectly within his rights to decide that this action constitutes interfering with the ball following a goal. There is no denying that the player touched it and threw it somewhere. Not saying that I would make that determination, but I also can't state that any official doing so is totally wrong. I would even be likely to make this determination if the team was repeatedly catching the ball as it fell from the net and passing it to the nearest official. They have no right to do that. They need to leave the ball alone and allow the other team to collect it.
If my partner is not properly enforcing this rule, I would have no problem doing so. I don't care if I am the Lead, Center, or Trail. Nowhere in the rules does it state that only the new Trail official can make this call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
this was the third quarter without any warning being given prior and how is this making it an actionless contest?
We will just have to disagree on that point.
As I just stated above it doesn't make it an actionless contest. That rule is completely inapplicable precisely because, as you note, no prior warning has been given. There has to be a repeated infraction of the interfering with the ball prohibition for the team to be guilty of creating an actionless contest. Do you understand that?
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 06:31pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,588
Under construction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch View Post
OK, who besides me felt uneasy when the snipping showed up?
Especially because it was two separate snips.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2 Timeout Sit. PAT THE REF Basketball 10 Tue Feb 28, 2006 06:20pm
30 second timeout Rita C Basketball 15 Sat Jan 14, 2006 05:41pm
timeout xxssmen Basketball 6 Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:02pm
Timeout??? Bchill24 Basketball 6 Tue Dec 25, 2001 12:34am
Timeout Rookie Basketball 17 Wed Dec 12, 2001 04:44am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:12am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1