Elbow Swinging II

[Man In Blue]

A 1 is bring the ball up the court. B1 tightly defending but legal. As A1 gets just over half court, picks up his dribble, and chins the ball swinging both elbows clearing space.

B1 almost falls backwards (tripping over his own feet) trying to get out of the way. I called a violation for excessive swinging of the elbows. Coach A is very upset, the player acts as if you doesn't know what he did wrong, etc.

After the game we are discussing the play. One official who didn't work the game but saw the play thought a foul or travel would have been a better call. He said he hadn't seen that call for years. I told him I didn't see a travel or contact that was a foul.

Should we make up a call that would be easier to sell?

[Adam]

No, sounds like you had the right call.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Man In Blue

After the game we are discussing the play. One official who didn't work the game but saw the play thought a foul or travel would have been a better call. He said he hadn't seen that call for years. I told him I didn't see a travel or contact that was a foul.

Well, I saw the play last Wednesday when one of my partners called it. It was an obvious call. I was right next to the coach as we were putting the ball back in play and when I explained the call to him, of course, he had "never heard of it before". So therefore it was a bad call.

[deecee]

The only thing that gets me is when there is contact and the foul is called simply because the defender was all up in the offensive players grill. Just the fact that there is contact with the elbow does not necessitate a foul. For that matter a hard rotation of the ball from one side to the others might look like bad but if its in the normal movement of the body and just proper technique its not a violation either.

I have seen both called simply because the elbow was out during a ball rotation. There is no provision that states the elbows must be tucked at all times. Sometimes a players will take a nasty elbow to the face that is entirely his fault. Doesn't mean its a foul or violation. This is also where judgement does come in.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

The only thing that gets me is when there is contact and the foul is called simply because the defender was all up in the offensive players grill. Just the fact that there is contact with the elbow does not necessitate a foul. For that matter a hard rotation of the ball from one side to the others might look like bad but if its in the normal movement of the body and just proper technique its not a violation either.

I have seen both called simply because the elbow was out during a ball rotation. There is no provision that states the elbows must be tucked at all times. Sometimes a players will take a nasty elbow to the face that is entirely his fault. Doesn't mean its a foul or violation. This is also where judgement does come in.

Is there a space requirement the defender must give the offensive player?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Is there a space requirement the defender must give the offensive player?

How Socratic.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by deecee

The only thing that gets me is when there is contact and the foul is called simply because the defender was all up in the offensive players grill. Just the fact that there is contact with the elbow does not necessitate a foul. For that matter a hard rotation of the ball from one side to the others might look like bad but if its in the normal movement of the body and just proper technique its not a violation either.

I have seen both called simply because the elbow was out during a ball rotation. There is no provision that states the elbows must be tucked at all times. Sometimes a players will take a nasty elbow to the face that is entirely his fault. Doesn't mean its a foul or violation. This is also where judgement does come in.

The defender has every right to get in the grill of the offensive player. It's called "dee-fense."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The defender has every right to get in the grill of the offensive player. It's called "dee-fense."

I hate it when I call an offensive foul or elbow violation here and the coach is crying "get him off him." "Coach, I'll ask them to stop playing defense, but I can't enforce that."*

* Things I wish I could say.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

The only thing that gets me is when there is contact and the foul is called simply because the defender was all up in the offensive players grill. Just the fact that there is contact with the elbow does not necessitate a foul. Sometimes a players will take a nasty elbow to the face that is entirely his fault. Doesn't mean its a foul or violation. This is also where judgment does come in.

If the elbow enters the defender's "cylinder" and hits him in the face, I've got a player control foul, at the least. If the defender is sticking his nose into the offensive player's "cylinder" and hits his nose against the offensive player's elbow, I've probably got nothing, except an upset coach, and an upset player.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If the elbow enters the defender's "cylinder" and hits him in the face, I've got a player control foul, at the least. If the defender is sticking his nose into the offensive player's "cylinder" and hits his nose against the offensive player's elbow, I've probably got nothing, except an upset coach, and an upset player.

yes thats what i am trying to say except you said it better. and by cylinder than means circular and i allow the offensive player room to pivot.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

yes thats what i am trying to say except you said it better. and by cylinder than means circular and i allow the offensive player room to pivot.

Not if he pivots into the defender's cylinder. If a defender is just standing, let's say, 18 inches, from a rebounder, and the rebounder, not knowing that the defender was there, simply pivots, without excessively swinging the elbows, and hits the defender, with an elbow, in the face, the I'm calling a player control foul.

[deecee]

so the defensive players cylinder has more rights than the offensive players? i dont buy that

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by deecee

so the defensive players cylinder has more rights than the offensive players? i dont buy that

Not what he said. You have the right to your space. Before the O player pivots, he isn't in the D players space. When he does pivot he enters the D players space. Who created the contact? That is all you need to ask.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by deecee

so the defensive players cylinder has more rights than the offensive players? i dont buy that

Once again, deecee, you are incorrect. That is why everyone in this thread is disagreeing with your position. The defender is not required to give the offensive player with the ball any time or distance. The defender can legally be as close to the opposing player as he can get without making contact. If the offensive player then pivots and causes contact which places the defender at a disadvantage, the proper call is a player control foul.

[ma_ref]

Originally Posted by Man In Blue

Should we make up a call that would be easier to sell?

I think it's time to find another line of work if you are even remotely considering the above option...