Elbow Swinging II

[rhartod]

Getting back to the original post...I have been officiating for four years and have found that this call (excessive swinging of the elbows violation) is one that gives me and my partners a lot grief with the coaches. Simply put...the coaches don't know this rule. I commonly get the, "I have never heard of that before" or the "show me in the rule book where that is..." or the "there was no contact...how can that be a violation???", etc....

Coaches have the same rule book that I have. It couldn't be clearer that excessive swinging of the elbows is a violation. I believe it was changed a few years back from a technical foul to a violation so that more officials would call this to help prevent contact/injury. The only way that coaches and players will learn is if we make the call consistently.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by rhartod

Coaches have the same rule book that I have.

Surely you jest!

And don't call me Shirley!

But, I agree, like the "player being out of bounds" violation, it's seldom called.

[w_sohl]

[quote=rhartod;581126]"show me in the rule book where that is..."[quote]


9-13 coach...

[deecee]

My contention is not one that I agree/disagree with anyone. It is that 9 out of 10 times unless it is blatant then we have no call or defensive foul called.

I practice it is easy to say that here it is but here is where there is a big disconnect from rule book to reality.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by deecee

My contention is not one that I agree/disagree with anyone. It is that 9 out of 10 times unless it is blatant then we have no call or defensive foul called.

I practice it is easy to say that here it is but here is where there is a big disconnect from rule book to reality.

Deecee,

Maybe where you are, and if that's truly the case in your area then the officials making these calls need some serious clinic time on proper rules application.

Go back a few posts to what w_sohl and Nevadaref said:

"Who created the contact?"
"The defender is not required to give the offensive player with the ball any time or distance. The defender can legally be as close to the opposing player as he can get without making contact. If the offensive player then pivots and causes contact which places the defender at a disadvantage, the proper call is a player control foul."

These are the key elements that need to be applied, not some arbitrary interpretation the officials come up with on their own. It's absolutely wrong to penalize the defense for illegal contact initiated by an offensive player.

With respect to calling a violation for "excessive swinging of the arms/elbows (without contact)" per 9-13, the key word is "excessive". The purpose of this rule is to prevent the action of swinging the arms/elbows by the offensive player to clear space between them & the defender(s). Swinging arms and elbows are flat out dangerous. I'd much rather call a violation before contact, than wait for the contact and have to call either a player control, intentional or flagrant foul.

[deecee]

I agree. I always base my calls on advantage/disadvantage and who was the initiator of the contact. I am just saying that I personally allow an offensive player the right to pivot within reason and contact that happens here I usually no call.

It goes back to why is this contact MORE severe than other contact that we no call. Because it just happens to occur on the face? where and how do we judge severity of contact based on different parts of the body?

This is a similar argument we had to where we were going over a kick versus a punch. Some were judging them differently. I would have a hard time calling a foul either way on a clean pivot that causes contact, and is within the offensive players cylinder and the defensive player was in a legal position. My opinion is that contact is incindental.

If, however, I feel as though the contact is NOT incidental then more than likely I have a PC. If I feel its Malicious then I have an intentional or flagrant. If its excessive and there is no contact then I have no problem with the violation.

I am just arguing that so far on this thread it almost seems like a certainty that this type of contact HAS to be a foul. My position is, sometimes yes, and sometimes its incidental. Officials will take from this discussion, if that is the point and some will take it as an absolute, that ANY contact with the defenders face or head by the offensive player will be a PC foul, and we no that is not true.

So Billy and Nevada I am not disagreeing with the rule. I just interpret it a bit differently. And I do want to make a note that I am differentiating between pivoting within reason and legally to pivoting with the elbows extended simply to clear space between them and the defender.

[Adam]

deecee, I don't understand who two players can have the right to the same space. If an offensive player pivots into a defensive player's rightful space, it's not a clean pivot. How can it be?
The rules specifically say time and distance are not factors when the guarded player has the ball.

[bbcoach7]

don't guard them with your face. Obviously not right after one of them has been elbowed in the nose.

And if one of mine accidentally elbows a defender in the face and she was not excessively swinging her elbows, I tell her, "She shouldn't have been guarding you with her face."

But as I mentioned in the first elbow swinging thread- all my defender has to do is change her arm position to cross her arms at the wrist, stick her open hands up in the players face to obstruct vision, and now the elbows can't contact my players face without first hitting forearms or wrists.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I hate it when I call an offensive foul or elbow violation here and the coach is crying "get him off him." "Coach, I'll ask them to stop playing defense, but I can't enforce that."*

* Things I wish I could say.

I had a play after a rebound where A1 (w/ball) elbowed B1 (who was behind A1) in the ribs. I called PC.

Team A HC yells at me "That's was a good call but you need to get him off him".

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bbcoach7

But as I mentioned in the first elbow swinging thread- all my defender has to do is change her arm position to cross her arms at the wrist, stick her open hands up in the players face to obstruct vision,

How close is she getting to the face; could be a T.

[OHBBREF]

We are discusing two different things here, a violation which falls under the rule below and specifically says that Feinting or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive.

Which I would presume to mean that if the defender is trying to get to the ball, the offensive player can pivot or move the ball to maintain control exempt from this guidline. If the defender is just standing there with their arms elevated in perfect defensive position then we could have an issue.

SECTION 13 EXCESSIVE SWINGING OF ARM(S)/ELBOW(S)
ART. 1 . . . A player shall not excessively swing his/her arms(s) or elbow(s), even without contacting an opponent.
ART. 2 . . . A player may extend arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under the chin or against the body.
ART. 3 . . . Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movements as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive. PENALTYSection 13) The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation. (See 6-7-9 Exception d)

With regard to a foul either PC or on the defense, that determination is made based on the players position on the floor as well as the advantage disadvantage principles we abide by, and if the swing of the elbows is excessive then the foul would need to be called Intentional/flagrant if PC.

What people fail to realize in most cases based on the Fed rule, if the defender is trying to get at the ball the offensive player has the right to move the ball around to avoid the defenders aggression, and it is not considered excessive. When there is contact within the vertical plane of the offensive player the foul would be on the defense. If the offensive player pivots to the defender and contacts them it would be player control.

This rule is not called more often IMHO because it is misunderstood, the time when people want it called is usually when it should not be called.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

...if the swing of the elbows is excessive then the foul would need to be called Intentional/flagrant if PC.

Nope, intentional and flagrant fouls cannot be PC fouls.

The contact certainly can be deemed intentional or flagrant, but that would then result in two FTs for the offended player.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nope, intentional and flagrant fouls cannot be PC fouls.

The contact certainly can be deemed intentional or flagrant, but that would then result in two FTs for the offended player.

Correct my choice of type of foul was worded incorrectly should have said "If charged to the offensive player."

[BubbaRef]

I had this same exact play in my girls 3a regional last night and I ended up calling an offensive foul because the offense made contact with the defense with her elbow and the defenders chin. The defender went down and the call had to be made. The coach of the team I called the foul on said nothing when I made it. Also talked to a state finals official that was at the game and he said it was an excellent call also.

I would think that if some kind of contact is made in the scenario's in this thread something has to be called a foul on defense or offense, or if you have excessive swinging then call a violation. I would hate for this to have happened and nothing called.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by BubbaRef

I would think that if some kind of contact is made in the scenario's in this thread something has to be called, either violation or foul on defense or offense. I would hate for this to have happened and nothing called.

contact violation?????