free throw issue help

[agelof]

A youth U10 Y game where everyone (players, coaches, ref and fans) is friends has turned argumentative around a free throw issue (and the playoff push). I have an interest in the game but would like some outside perspective.

Tight back and forth game. Last quarter. Team A (underdog needing the win for playoffs) takes first lead of the game. 35-33. 10 seconds left. Team B with ball down 2 (in double bonus) player dribbles ball down for shot and misses. Team B player (or players depending on perspective) gets rebound and a Team B player is fouled.

Ref puts team B's star player at line. Team B is down by 2. Team A coach is extremely upset believes it was clear that foul was committed against another player on Team B (who is not anywhere as good FT shooter.) Coach Team A and Team A fans etc shouting at official to change player. No change is made to player on the line (unclear if offical heard Team A protests). 5 seconds on clock. Star misses front end. Team B coach calls time out and instructs star to miss 2nd shot and for everyone to go after rebound hard immediately put up shot. Star hits rim with missed 2nd shot. Team B gets rebound but lane violation is called on Team A. Line up again star hits rim again with an intentional miss, this time he gets in lane gets his own rebound, shoots scores and is fouled. (no dispute to any of this)

star misses the and one free throw. 35-35 game goes to OT and Team B wins easily.

after game coach, fans and parents of team A, believe coaches of team B exibited poor sportsmanship by not correcting who offical put at the line.

Team A has video of the game which they indicates shows "star" who was on the line was not Team B player that was fouled.

After game, Team A advocates that if the wrong player shot the free throw that it is a technical and Team A should have been immediately awarded possession (with 3 seconds on the clock and league rule no guarding in back court game should have been over they should have won.)

Ok I guess I can't hide my perspective. I am an assistant coach of the winning Team B. I haven't seen the video. I can see where there was a strong point of view that wrong kid went to the line. However, after the game the "star" was asked about the issue and for his part said he was fouled and thats why he didn't understand the big deal. (He is 9 so its not like he is savy enough to just jump up there) I am disappointed that Team A base is claiming the win was "undeserved" especially with how I feel the overall call no calls of the game seemed to favor them (again a biased opinion) let alone that the game went to over time...and the star didnt even hit FTs. On top of it taking away from a bunch of great clutch performances.

Anyway what is the rule in this situation if the wrong player was at the line. (is this even possible if the game offical puts that kid there? ... or otherwise?)

Whats the sportsmanship analysis here. Team A has written an email to coach of team B indicating the sporting thing to do would be to give them the win.


Thanks

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by agelof

Anyway what is the rule in this situation if the wrong player was at the line. (is this even possible if the game offical puts that kid there? ... or otherwise?)

Whats the sportsmanship analysis here. Team A has written an email to coach of team B indicating the sporting thing to do would be to give them the win.

It is a technical foul to purposely send the wrong player to shoot FTs. The problem is I read nothing but anecdotal evidence that this even happen that way. For one the officials ultimately determine who is fouled and if they feel they are sending the right player to the line, not much anyone can do. For one it is possible that people watching have no idea who the foul was called on or why a foul was called. And I do not think anyone here can dispute facts we did not see.

The bottom line is this was a youth game. You likely had inexperienced officials or officials that are not considered good enough to work other levels. It is possible they made a mistake, but I see nothing that suggests that was the case except for the word of people that have an interest in the outcome. And if we took the word of people that always have an interest in the outcome as law; none of our decisions would stand. If you have not seen the video, then I do not know why you would just take the word of some parents or the other team.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

1. THE KIDS ARE 9 YEARS OLD!!!!! It's not a big deal. It's just a game that is supposed to be played by the kids for fun.

2. If you play by NFHS (high school) rules, then the wrong player attempting a FT is a correctable error. However, one of the officials has to have definite knowledge of this fact in order to correct it. In other words, one of the officials must KNOW that another player was the one who was fouled. A coach or parent saying so isn't enough information to make a change. NCAA officials can check the video replay monitor. NFHS officials can't. So even if a mistake were made here, it is unlikely that a correction could be made.

3. Also according to NFHS rules it is a technical foul for a player to knowingly attempt a FT to which the player is not entitled. However, even if this were determined to be the case, the technical foul would not negate the merited FT(s) from being attempted by the rightful player. There is also a caveat to that the rule stating that there is no technical if the wrong player attempted the FTs due to confusion. In that case, the FTs are simply cancelled and the proper player is then brought to the line and they are reattempted without any additional penalty.

4. Therefore, if the claim of Team A is correct, which is difficult to prove, then the proper ruling would be to cancel the attempts of the wrong player (which were unsuccessful!), charge that player with a technical foul, clear the lane and allow the proper player to attempt two FTs, then adminsiter the penalty for the technical foul. (At the HS level that would be two FTs plus possession of the ball at the division line for the opposing team, but at the U10 level it could be an automatic two points plus the ball. I don't know what your local league rules say.)

5. Lastly, it is hard to say what is a correct ruling at the U10 level because the rules are often taken from the high school or college levels and altered to accommodate the younger kids, and once changes are made certain aspects of the game are greatly impacted and some other things simply no longer apply. For example, according to NFHS rules there is no restriction on pressing in the backcourt. That is obviously an adaption by your local league, which is quite common for very young players, yet it isn't going to be found in an NFHS or NCAA rules book.

6. In the end, it's just a game played by kids FOR FUN. I gave you the proper rules interpretations for the HS level, but in the end does it really matter? It's not a big deal who won or lost a game played by nine year-olds, is it? I just hope that your kid got some enjoyment from the game.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by agelof

Ref puts team B's star player at line.

It is a technical foul for a player to knowingly accept a free throw to which he is not entitled. But who can say what the player knew or didn't know. Even when the wrong shooter goes to the line, and is replaced by the officials with the correct shooter, it is difficult to call the technical in this situation. If, as per your quote above, did the officials put him at the line, or did they simply accept whoever stepped up to the line? If they put him there, it can be nothing more than an officials mistake, and a done deal. If the wrong player stepped to the line, intentionally or otherwise, and this was not immediately addressed by the official, from a rules standpoint it's still a done deal.

[Juulie Downs]

In games played by 9 year olds, pretty much every play at least two or three kids are fouled. The only question would be, "Which player did the officials call the foul on?" As others have said, it may be that the official was indeed calling a foul on the player that was defending the "star" player. It's also highly likely these officials are very, very inexperienced and don't always notice who took the foul, so the wrong player could have inadvertently stepped to the line. I doubt highly this was intentional, thus no T would be warranted.

All that being said, I think those parents, coaches and others who are making this into a federal case, and wanting to show their video to a judge somewhere need to get lives. Tell them to exert their righteous indignation on more important issues than whether or not 9 year old kids do or don't make the play-offs.

Furthermore, no 9 year old leagues should have play-offs. Way, way too much pressure to put on such young kids.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by agelof

Whats the sportsmanship analysis here. Team A has written an email to coach of team B indicating the sporting thing to do would be to give them the win.

Team A should have "played better" during the first (game time less ten seconds) so any such error in the last ten seconds doesn't matter.

The sporting thing to do is to congratulate Team B.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by agelof

Anyway what is the rule in this situation if the wrong player was at the line. (is this even possible if the game offical puts that kid there? ... or otherwise?)
Whats the sportsmanship analysis here. Team A has written an email to coach of team B indicating the sporting thing to do would be to give them the win.

The job of the official is to call the foul, identify who committed the foul and who was fouled. The "quality" of the player is irrelevant to the officials. If the official says the foul is on White 12, when everyone else "knows" it was White 22, the coach can ask the official if he reported the foul correctly...but that is it. (The official, if he is in doubt, can ask his partner if he has knowledge to help, but that's it.)

The same is true of the player who is fouled. It take some experience and training to get all this right: identify the illegal contact, determine which player is responsible and identify the player who is fouled. In a youth league, it can be much harder if the kids do not have numbers on the front of the uniform. You might know each kid and his personality, but the ref first sees only uniform colors and numbers -- and if there are no numbers or some clear identifying physical feature -- it is not easy.

The rules require the official to identify the player who shoots the free throws -- not the players, their coaches or their fans. Sportsmanship dictates that both teams and coaches play fair, within the rules and respect the decisions of the officials. And the job of the parents is to cheer for their kids. That's it. The only proper "sporting" thing for both teams is to say "good game" to the other team.

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

In games played by 9 year olds, pretty much every play at least two or three kids are fouled. The only question would be, "Which player did the officials call the foul on?" As others have said, it may be that the official was indeed calling a foul on the player that was defending the "star" player. It's also highly likely these officials are very, very inexperienced and don't always notice who took the foul, so the wrong player could have inadvertently stepped to the line. I doubt highly this was intentional, thus no T would be warranted.

All that being said, I think those parents, coaches and others who are making this into a federal case, and wanting to show their video to a judge somewhere need to get lives. Tell them to exert their righteous indignation on more important issues than whether or not 9 year old kids do or don't make the play-offs.

Furthermore, no 9 year old leagues should have play-offs. Way, way too much pressure to put on such young kids.

Just two or three being fouled? I'll throw in sometimes two or three being fouled and two or three doing the fouling!

Hear, hear!

[agelof]

I can't thank everyone enough. I greatly appreciate the time everyone put into providing the informative e-mails. Great site.

I really began to loose my mind with this today. Game was Saturday! and even now in our town there have literaly been a half dozen emails written followed by calls from Team A insisting that Team B should forfeit this win as "undeserved." Typical small town stuff.

Every time we (Team B) and league address this along the lines indicated in these emails ...its a call guys in a U10 game move on ... just enjoy it for what it was a good exciting game its over. Then another call or email.

I think I understand the rule now. Not that I ever care or plan to share it or revisit this issue.

Thanks

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by agelof

game goes to OT

If the officials screwed up at all, this was it.

[agelof]

but that decision was based upon a one 4 min ot period league rule, not on the game official.

[shishstripes]

Originally Posted by agelof

but that decision was based upon a one 4 min ot period league rule, not on the game official.

Mark hates OT so don't take him seriously. He makes these comments regularly and many here get annoyed, while others of us just ignore.

I would add this, how many 9 year olds will knowingly shoot a FT that they aren't supposed to when the official puts them on the line? Team A needs to congratulate Team B, anything else is unsportsmanlike and teaching their children something that shouldn't be taught.

[mick]

Originally Posted by agelof

• Team B player (or players depending on perspective) gets rebound and a Team B player is fouled.
• Ref puts team B's star player at line.
• Team A has video of the game which they indicates shows "star" who was on the line was not Team B player that was fouled.
• However, after the game the "star" was asked about the issue and for his part said he was fouled and thats why he didn't understand the big deal.

agelof,
I can see it very clearly from U.P. here.

Your star Team B player was fouled first ,and regardless of whether he ended up with the rebound or not, all contact after that foul is to be considered incidental.