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Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 12:28pm
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Smile Inbounds play

Hi everyone, I need your help with a question.

Our opponent (Red) was attempting to inbound the ball from under our basket. Red inbounds the ball attempting to throw it to a Red team mate, but my girl (White - defending) tips the ball back into the inbounding Red player who has not moved from her out of bound spot. So now our opponent on Red is standing out of bounds holding the ball. Ref awards the ball to Red team for another inbound. My player (white) was no where near the end line so it wasn't a matter of her standing on the line and the ball did not bounce OB before Red caught it.

This was right in front of our (White) bench and I immediately asked how he's giving it to Red when she's standing with both feet about a foot out of bounds holding the ball. He told me that my girl (White) tipped it last and caused it to go out of bounds. I then again made the point that it didn't hit the floor, and Red caught it standing out of bounds.

Can someone tell me whether he got the call right or wrong? The status of the girl throwing the ball in was OB so it should have been our ball. Correct?
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 12:30pm
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Originally Posted by Quahogboy View Post
Hi everyone, I need your help with a question.

Our opponent (Red) was attempting to inbound the ball from under our basket. Red inbounds the ball attempting to throw it to a Red team mate, but my girl (White - defending) tips the ball back into the inbounding Red player who has not moved from her out of bound spot. So now our opponent on Red is standing out of bounds holding the ball. Ref awards the ball to Red team for another inbound. My player (white) was no where near the end line so it wasn't a matter of her standing on the line and the ball did not bounce OB before Red caught it.

This was right in front of our (White) bench and I immediately asked how he's giving it to Red when she's standing with both feet about a foot out of bounds holding the ball. He told me that my girl (White) tipped it last and caused it to go out of bounds. I then again made the point that it didn't hit the floor, and Red caught it standing out of bounds.

Can someone tell me whether he got the call right or wrong? The status of the girl throwing the ball in was OB so it should have been our ball. Correct?
Correct.
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 12:59pm
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I'm curious, what level was this?
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 01:11pm
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Originally Posted by Quahogboy View Post
Can someone tell me whether he got the call right or wrong? The status of the girl throwing the ball in was OB so it should have been our ball. Correct?
Case 7.2.2 Situation: A throw-in by A1 (a) strikes B1 who is inbounds and rebounds in flight directly from B1 and then strikes A1 who is still out of bounds; (b) is batted by B1, who is inbounds and the ball is next touched by A1 who is still out of bounds. Ruling: A1 caused the ball to go out of bounds and it is awarded to Team B at that spot for a throw-in for both (a) and (b).
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 01:21pm
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Originally Posted by Quahogboy View Post
Hi everyone, I need your help with a question.
I didn't know that Peter Griffin was a coach?
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Old Sun Feb 15, 2009, 03:53pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
I'm curious, what level was this?
This is a chuch league and it was girls grades 7-12. Our officials come from an officiating league that refs the public and private schools as well as the college level. There are hundreds of games that they officiate and I understand that there are many levels of quality with these refs. We usually take what we can get and being a girl's league we get the excuse that we get the bottom of the barrel with those that are just starting out sometimes or just aren't very good.

We have had some abysmal officiating and some that were fantastic. In my honest opinion, if I don't notice the refs during a game then I believe they did a great job. Last week the opposing team was running into my point guard and holding them with their arms out across my girl's arms making all sorts of contact and leaning into my players. It was a team with less skilled girls and their idea of slowing our dribble was to put the body against my point guards. Hand check didn't even come close to what they were doing, more like arm check or body check (and yes there was contact... I know that they are allowed to reach in). I approached the two refs at 1/2 time and very calmly and respectfully (seriously) described the holding that was occuring every time we brought the ball up the floor and could they watch for it. One ref immediately snapped and said "This is what I am going to do. I am going to call it really tight now. And I don't want to hear you crying about it when your girls all start fouling out". I told him that I have agreed with every foul that he called so far against my team and was just asking for them to take another look when play resumed. Pretty much figured I had ticked this guy off (the other one didn't say a word and just smirked at me the whole conversation). I try to teach my team to play D with their feet and position rather than what these other girls were doing so they didn't understand why the other team was getting away with it. Just frustrating.

The guy that we had this week with the incorrect call that I mentioned above also blew a blatant backcourt call. My girl got a loose ball and forgot where she was and took off up the court towards the wrong basket. Everyone in the gym knew it was a backcourt except the two refs that were just standing there watching. She realized what she had done and stopped near the 3 point arc then passed it to another girl who then lost it OB. There were a lot of non calls in this game with some heavy contact and because of the blown OB call earlier, the one ref's ego really got in the way and he gave every close call the rest of the game to the Red team. There were many that were blatantly out on Red but still awarded to Red instead of White.

We have had 5 weeks in a row however, with exceptional refs and I let the head of the league know every time so we will continue to get the good ones that want to do their job right. I feel we owe it to these kids. Thanks for letting me rant...
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Old Sun Feb 15, 2009, 04:55pm
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I'll just say that I hope the ref that made this OOB call was not one of the ones that does college and high school varsity.

I'll also say that about the one who snapped at you at half time. Even if you were asking for three seconds during a throwin, or traveling during a throwin, I'd politely answer you at that point.

I've heard refs make this comment about a coach winning by 20 at half time, but I've never heard one actually say it to the coach. Were you winning by 20 at that point?
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Old Sun Feb 15, 2009, 05:49pm
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Originally Posted by Quahogboy View Post
The guy blew a blatant backcourt call. My girl got a loose ball and forgot where she was and took off up the court toward the wrong basket. Everyone in the gym knew it was a backcourt except the two refs that were just standing there watching. She realized what she had done and stopped near the 3 point arc then passed it to another girl who then lost it OB.
Blatant? Yes. Confusing? Yes, maybe so confusing, and so out of the ordinary, that the officials were trying to figure out what was going on, and the ball went out of bounds before the trail could blow his whistle. I could see myself, a high school varsity official, a twenty-eight year veteran, pausing, and maybe kicking this call, "Let's see, blue was going this way in the first half, now they're supposed to be going this way, did they start the half going this way, why is she dribbling in this direction, wait a second, she's dribbling the wrong way, that's funny, let's see if she scores in the wrong basket, wait a second, I forgot to call a backcourt violation, what a crazy game, too late, the ball went out of bounds".
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Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 07:12am
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
I'll just say that I hope the ref that made this OOB call was not one of the ones that does college and high school varsity.

I've heard refs make this comment about a coach winning by 20 at half time, but I've never heard one actually say it to the coach. Were you winning by 20 at that point?
lol... good point. Yeah there is no way they would tolerate some of these guys at even the public school level.

And if you saw my team you'd know what we were up against. I call my girls affectionately my "angry bees" defense. We're small and irritating. That's all we've got. We have no height and the team we were playing against was like Yao Ming against Chris Paul. It just wasn't going to happen under the boards. I had my 5 ft point guard playing man to man against their 6 ft plus center because she asked. We are 2-7 on the season because no matter how we draw it up, you can't teach height. We have a lot of unskilled 7th and 8th grade girls playing where we really have to draw things up to get them shots. I have no post game at all most games as a result and we do the best we can to keep the other team out of the key.
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Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 07:44am
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Blatant? Yes. Confusing? Yes, maybe so confusing, and so out of the ordinary, that the officials were trying to figure out what was going on, and the ball went out of bounds before the trail could blow his whistle.
another good point. The problem here is that this is towards the end of the game where he has already jaded a gym full of parents with his incompetent calls and then his ego, this was yet another example of the quality level of this official.

And I really do sympathize with the officials too. I actually officiated when I was in college for Jr and Sr varsity games and tournaments (girls and guys). I completely understand what you're saying and I know I was far from perfect as well. I always tried to be fair and accurate in my calls but know that it can always be a challenge. That's why I always let the officials who know what they're doing know how much I appreciate the job they did at the end of the game (yes even if we lost). It's funny. They look at me surprised that I am shaking their hands and telling them they did a good job.

Another thing here is that after the OB call the ref gave me a technical. I had started walking back to the other end of the bench talking to my bookkeeper and tossed my clipboard to the floor the way I do in every game all game long. I drop it straight down with a little spin so it lands flat next to the end of the bench. I wasn't doing it out of anger or anything, remember this is a church league and we've signed covenants to not argue with the refs or get onto them. I also have 14 sets of eyes on my bench watching me react so have to be careful. Well apparently the ref that it was a slight on him because he heard or saw the clipboard and t'd me up. It took me around 30 seconds to realize who the technical was on because at first he wouldn't tell me. When he finally told me it was because I threw my clipboard I started laughing. I could not believe it. I wasn't looking at him and hadn't said anything to him.

Well then when they were clearing the lane for the technical there was a buzz with the parents who at this point had had enough. Remember this is after a series of non calls and the OB call and now the technical. They started yelling at the ref (already had been telling the ref that he got the OB call wrong). Now I know this is something that every official has had to deal with before as I have had to when I officiated. The crowd gets mad with a call and you just ignore them. Well the ref decided to throw out a parent because the parent was telling him to get the calls right. He wasn't cussing or anything. I ended up walking over to the man with the gym official to escort him out of the building because the ref said he wasn't going to move on until this person was out of the building. It was amazing.

I know this sounds terrible (and it was) but if you were at the game I guarantee that you would understand the situation and how this ref got to the point that with all the bad calls I felt he got personal and with the tech on me and tossing the parent I feel that he let his ego get in the way. Every close call he made he would glance over at me to see if there would be a reaction. I kept having to hold my breath and look the other way as I felt I was on a very short leash and didn't want that second T.

The rest of the way I just encouraged my girls and we actually did pretty well against this team causing a lot of turnovers and scoring well in the fourth quarter to lose by 6. In fact at the end when I had called a timeout and I asked the girls what they wanted to yell out when we do our hands in...1-2-3... they chose to yell out "We Rock". I constantly try to get the girls to ignore the officiating and tell them to just press on regardless of what is caused and they continue to amaze me with their great attitudes.
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Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 09:26am
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.... and tossed my clipboard to the floor the way I do in every game all game long. I drop it straight down with a little spin so it lands flat next to the end of the bench. I wasn't doing it out of anger or anything, .........

Well the ref decided to throw out a parent because the parent was telling him to get the calls right. He wasn't cussing or anything.
It sounds like you had a rough game.
I would suggest you stop your clipboard tossing. Many officials, especially in a heated game, take that as a sign of coach anger, and will "T" (lesson learned?).

Of course, its a HTBT sich, but if the crowd is yelling, how could you hear exactly what 1 person said to the official to get escorted out? Of course, listening to the escorted fan's excuse doesnt count!
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Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 10:00am
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(lesson learned?).

Of course, its a HTBT sich, but if the crowd is yelling, how could you hear exactly what 1 person said to the official to get escorted out? Of course, listening to the escorted fan's excuse doesnt count!
Well definitely lesson learned for that game as I watched my P's and Q's the rest of the way. I heard a lot of what he was yelling at the ref and it was mostly "why don't you get the call right? how about giving us the same calls that you're giving the other team?" etc. Then there was the blown OB call as well that he kept yelling that it wasn't their ball. Everyone could hear because at the point he was telling the refs there weren't too many people saying anything then. It was just a bad situation. Even though when I got outside with the parent that I agreed with his assesment of the calls I let him know that he needed to cool down. I just felt that the ref jumped early tossing him but that's just my opinion. I'm curious how many on this board have tossed a fan because they were upset at the calls and yelling out disapproval? Is this common?
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Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 10:05am
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I've only tossed one fan in my career, only because he was truly an ucking fidiot and needed to be gone. I've had a few others, at HS subvarsity levels, that most of us should ignore, but I've sometimes offered my whistle and game fee to see if they had the cajoles to be out there with us. They shut up so fast people are actually laughing at them. One time I did it in front of the police chief, who I found out later had graduated HS with the dude I offered the whistle to. Chief paid me a compliement later, and said he just might use my example to his officers.
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Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 10:12am
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Originally Posted by Quahogboy View Post
I'm curious how many on this board have tossed a fan because they were upset at the calls and yelling out disapproval? Is this common?
I have never done it but have had partners who have spoken firmly to some parents and given them the "option of staying and being supportive of everyone involved," as one once put it, or leaving the gym. They have always opted to stay and we have had quiet games in those situations. Never has this happened in a high school game, only in middle school travel and below.
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Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 11:08am
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Church leage? If a parent was berating me, making it personal, and it got to the point where I was distracted; I have no problem having the person removed. No swearing required.
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